SNEAKO X Professor Jiang X Aleksandr Dugin | Full Interview

how you doing alexander hey hello hello hi hey great to hear from you do you hear me

yes do you hear me yeah you're loud and clear can you hear us right great great perfect

excellent all right just want to make sure that we have everything set up here uh professor jeng should i have the uh the document you sent me earlier yes yes that is uh professor dugan's

uh powerpoint and i think it'd be a good framework for discussion okay uh do you think

that it's worth screen sharing or privately looking at it yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean

i think what we should do is maybe go point by point slide by slide because um it's very um i mean it's very broad and i have some i've shown questions for professor dugan uh and it's pbt okay so it is up to you to decide i just i

just have sent that in order to show a kind of context of approach to the end time problem in four different traditions in uh dispensationalism protestant american in zionist in shia and islamic in general and in russian orthodox so it could be of use or maybe not so it is up to you to to decide how use it you we can show that we can we can not show that so it's up to you if it will be useful we could

make appeal to this slides okay let me try to bring it on the zoom i've haven't done this before

um yeah i i look got the chance to look through it yesterday i thought it's uh it's a pretty straightforward document and i think it has a good frame of discussion here so yeah absolutely and once again i want to thank you both for taking the time to come on here today i greatly appreciate this there's been a lot of anticipation for this stream and i'm sure it's going to be an interesting conversation all right thanks so much for coming on well thanks so much for hosting

thank you thank you very much for inviting us and proposing your platform for this discussion so i'm at your disposal so i have uh the pair of hours dedicated totally to that maybe more if it is

possible so it is unlimited on my side i would say okay sounds great and i want to see side by side i think i'm trying to share it with uh so that we can see also the cameras can you are you able to see it or yes yes i can die myself also oh here we go i could see it like this all right so let's

start this discussion uh with this powerpoint here so it's uh it seems like it covers a lot of the basics of eschatology and this is something that i'm muslim so this is pretty standard for us to all know but this is something that professor jang has detailed extensively throughout his lectures and i think that he's going to be able to answer that question in a few minutes or so he shows the similarities and the overlapping themes and different fates and eschatology but also the major differences and how you can pinpoint what's happening in the world geopolitically and see that there is an overarching theme and that it all goes back to eschatological

beliefs correct yes um so i would also make the point that um you know so i really got into geopolitics and eschatology because i read professor dugan's book um the foundations of geopolitics which i highly recommend i i think it is the most important geopolitical book uh in our modern era and the thing about eschatology is that behind eschatology is also national character um the soul of a nation and that's why eschatology is so important because eschatology is just the expression of your national soul okay do you have

major disagreements and well first off how well do you know each other it's our first time okay so can I ask you uh Alexander Dugan or if I'll just call you Professor Dugan what is your analysis of Professor Jang's lectures and what do you think he gets correct and incorrect with eschatology

so first of all I have many Chinese friends in China a huge amount of friends and when I have spoken when I was speaking to them I have remarked that almost nobody nobody knew anything about eschatology so that Chinese culture is very particular in my own opinion in my opinion it is very balanced that confusion is the balance between a male and female between uh in and young so that is the Harmony that prevails so it is not about time not about history not about final combat final battle but more more than that about how we need to to make things to be very very peaceful way in uh in the Harmony and my very very good friends in China they always ask me what is going on in the Middle East what is about this Zionism why there is so important to have greater Israel why it's so important to to be dispensationalist in

Protestant circles in evangelicals so or and as well they didn't understand Russian cataconic idea eschatology and after that after having very good and friendful uh discussions with my Chinese friends I have on it seems that it was on your your stream uh sneaker so I have remarked that unique Chinese man who uh um had has shown the very deep understanding of eschatology of this uh and time concept in the context of Judaism of Zionism uh and the Shia and Islamic tradition and I was very very astonished because in my opinion that was the first and maybe unique Chinese scholar of such serious level who uh easily easily uh um uh understand this very special subject of world politics and I I was very uh very glad and I uh now I'm very happy to speak with unique Chinese scholar who has shown such deep engagement in in the study uh studies of eschatology so first

of all so for example nobody nobody or very few people speaks today about um uh about this kind of eschatological eschatological Kabbalah of Nathan of Gaza and this metaphysical vision of uh Kabbalistic eschatology and how it resonates how it it is reflected on the modern days global politics and geopolitics so Professor John is the unique it is exception uh above there are some people in Russia who understand that not not many but there are but absolutely nobody in China so that I was very very uh very interested and I I have I have seen I have watched many many other videos about predictions about uh uh game theory uh about as well about um Greek uh antiquity because I have made also classes dedicated to the classical tragedy of ancient Greeks. So I was very, very astonished by the similarity of many points, many approaches, and the depth of the knowledge of Professor Jiang about the things that most, mostly Chinese scholars ignore or could not grasp.

Maybe the majority lack this radical feeling of the end, of something irreversible, something linear, the linear time, irreversible fight between good and evil. Everything is not to Chinese. But we are living in the world with China, cosmos China, Chinese universe and other universe, American universe, Islamic universe. Universe, Russian universe. So in order to understand better each other, we need to get deep in the respective traditions. Maybe these traditions could be close to us or far from us, but we should pay some efforts to understand better each other.

Absolutely. And well, I have a couple of questions for you, Alexander. I wanted to figure out more about your belief system, because I saw some people are reporting that you have esoteric traditions, or some are saying that you're Orthodox Christian. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is. So in your own words, what would you classify your belief system as? And before you answer, people are asking in the chat what eschatology is. Maybe Professor Jiang could quickly describe it the best way, but I would just say, end times philosophy. Right. So eschatology comes out of the Greek word eschaton, which means the end.

So the word literally means the study of the end. And what eschatology often refers to is each religious tradition's understanding of the endpoint of history. Why are we here? Where are we going? Where do we come from? And the idea of eschatology is to figure out the point at which God and man reunify. Which brings about the end of history. So that's the general idea.

Okay. And obviously, Professor Jiang, I don't want to misclassify your belief system, but last time we spoke a little bit about Gnosticism. I saw recently on the Patrick McDavid show, you said at the end that you pray to God. So I would maybe say that it's general Gnosticism, but not specific to one theology. Is that correct?

Yeah. So for most of my life, I'm atheist. China is an atheist society. I didn't grow up with any religious tradition. And quite honestly, I was very skeptical towards religion all my life, especially towards Christianity. But these past two years, because I've been deep in the study of eschatology, the Kabbalah, geopolitics, I'm starting to develop a more Gnostic framework. But I would not say that I have one religious loyalty.

I could find a similarity. I think learning more about Epstein back in 2019 helped steer me in the direction of trying to find some sense of good because there's so much evil. And obviously, Alexander Dugan just spelled out how you speak about sabotage, which is not often mentioned. This is what going to be in the direction to look into faith. But can I ask you specifically, Professor Dugan, so what would you classify your faith as?

So first of all, I am a Christian Orthodox. So I'm Orthodox Christian, and that defines in what I believe. That is my confession. That is my church. That is my religious doctrine faith. My own personal and Russian faith is precisely Christian Orthodox religion. So I believe it is the only truth. So in that sense, I am believer, normal Christian Orthodox believer. But at the same time, I'm very interested by different other spiritual tradition. And in that sense, philosophically, philosophically, I'm traditionalist. What means to be a traditionalist? So I am following the spiritual philosophy of René Guénon, who converted into Islam, that is French, great French philosopher, and his his disciples, for example, Julius Hewlett and many others, Titus Burckhardt, Frithiof Schoen and the other. This philosophical approach. This approach considers the modernity to be anti -tradition. So modern world, it is not just development, not just progress, but quite opposite. That is decline. That is a fall.

And this traditionalist philosophy could be applied to Islam, as in the case of Guénon himself, to Confucianism, to Taoism, to Christianity. Christianity, as was the case of many of his disciples, Jan Bies and many other, and myself, in the case of Christian Orthodox Church. But as well, I have met for example, some people among Jews, Jewish Jewish Kabbalists, Kabbalists who followed Guénon, followed Guénon. You could be Guénonian not to follow to authenticity or Lösing or use치룬기 가지고. different religions. You could disagree with some political or eschatological, precisely, issues, but the main thing we share, all the traditionalists, we share this refusal of the Western modernity. So we can accept different traditions, but we consider the modernity to be absolutely wrong. Atheism, imperialism, progressism, enlightenment, all that things are totally evil. But trying to develop my own understanding of what are different traditions, different than mine, than Christian Orthodox, I have studied as well

the Kabbalah, the Judaism, Islam, Shia, Mishraq tradition, Christianity, of Catholicism, of Protestantism, and many other, Hinduism, for example, Buddhism, and Confucianism, and Taoism, all that Gnosticism, including some counter -tradition, counter -spiritual forms of tradition, all that is the path of this study. But my confession, my only position as a believer, so I believe in absolute truth of Christian Orthodox doctrine.

Right. I think you gave a good segue for what I can relate to what's happened recently. I'm sure, Professor Jang, you saw this as well. So yesterday was Orthodox Easter, if I'm not mistaken. I think the week before was Catholic Easter, and Donald Trump recently posted, well, something interesting on both Sundays. On Easter Sunday, he said, praise be to Allah, open up the door, and you're going to hear what the Pope is saying. And then on Sunday, he posted a long paragraph about the Pope, and he says, the Pope is very weak on crime. This is not a joke. He says the Pope is weak on crime. And then afterwards, he posts an AI image of himself with his face on Jesus. And he's putting his hand on what looks like a, to me, it looked like Jeffrey Epstein. And in the back, it looks like a Roman God, Libertas, the Statue of Liberty goddess.

Some Some people are saying that that's Malak flying in the sky and that was also altered. My point is, when I announced this stream, speaking with Professor Zhang and Alexander Dugin, to be perfectly honest, it went all over Twitter and people were saying, Sneaker was speaking to a CCP propagandist and a KGB propagandist. He's speaking to China and Russian spies. And they started saying, here they are to talk about how Western valleys are decaying. And I thought, okay, well, they're going to criticize this. They're going to say that there shouldn't be some sort of foreign influence. Well, our entire political lobby has been infiltrated by Zionists. Very clearly, everybody, it seems like, has dual allegiance to Israel, first off. So there's foreign influence everywhere. Second off, what exactly are Western American values? How could that be described? Alexander Dugin, you, I think, accurately described it. And you spoke to what a lot of people are feeling right now.

And that the modern Western values that we see, a lot of people are becoming disillusioned with. A lot of people are not happy with what they see. And if that is described by what we see in Euphoria, the new TV show, Sidney Sweeney dressed up like a baby, you know, doing this weird fetish thing, not to make it too disgusting early, but what we see everywhere that's promoted in the media, and even from our politicians, the leader of the free world, the commander in chief of our military, depicting himself as what Christians believe to be God. This is not what so many people want to sign up to follow. What do you see? What do you think are the main causes of the problems we see with American Western values right now? Maybe we could start with Professor Jang.

Right. So I think the root of a problem is 1694, because that is when the Bank of England was first chartered. And the Bank of England, the idea was that it would take transnational capital and lend it to the nation state of England with Parliament as the guarantor. OK, so previously, if you were a king and you wanted to fight a war, you need to hire mercenaries. So you borrow money from merchants who lent you gold in order to finance the war. The problem with this is that the king may die, you may lose the war, or the king may rig neck on the contract. So there's high risk for merchants to work with kings. So the Bank of England solved this problem because now Dutch merchants could lend money to England and be guaranteed by Parliament, the nation state. And this was a revolution in European affairs, because now England basically had infinite financing.

It could fight a war against someone like Napoleon and keep on fighting until Napoleon was finally defeated. So it took six, seven wars, seven wars for Napoleon to be defeated by the British. And the British lost six of these wars. So that's the power of infinite financing created by the Bank of England. It basically created the British Empire. But how do you go about justifying to people? Why are you, a citizen of England, borrowing money from these transnational capitalists, these merchants? And if you can't pay it back, your your son, your children, your grandchildren have to have to pay it back. Basically, your entire society is indebted to these merchants from overseas. We don't know. And so they needed to create a system, a philosophical system, in order to justify the British Empire. this and this is this this is when you have the beginning of what we call modern British enlightenment civilization okay starting

with John Locke and the certification of private property as the highest good as something that is God -given private property right then you have people like David Hume which questions the very legitimacy of human intuition and the project of philosophy of the pursuit of truth and you have people like Jeremy Bentham which put utilitarianism as the as the heart and center of society if something is if something brings people pleasure it is fundamentally good something brings people pain it's fundamentally evil and this this is the beginning of what we call a consumer society right where each individual is seeking his or her own pleasure many people like a John Stuart Mill who would take utilitarianism and then create a liberal society based on these principles okay so and then from that you have Charles Darwin history of evolution and Karl Marx and and so and and so these philosophers together create the the framework for

Western civilization and I think that comes afterwards is a byproduct of this philosophy and professor Dugan elaborated if he wants

so I agree we could as well we could continue that Spencer social Darwinism continuation of this is Anglo -Saxon liberalism and Enron was already the kind of capitalist satanism so from Enron to Epstein is only one step because if you have all the pleasure the other uh the poor will have all the pain so you should be happy when the other are essentially unhappy so that is the Atlas Shrucht precisely the main main message of so -called objectivism that is finalization of this capitalist logic but I would start a little before with Calvinism for example and Calvinism I think that was very special a very very non - dollarADP topic not only the global positive view of this right but deeply Yorkism I think as we all know the pushing away is never gonna be erased the carry on is still playful Dad labors but also essential race and society Christian idea affirming that there

is not afterlife, that the judgment of God is realized already in this life, and to be rich it is the sign of chooseness. So you are chosen, so you are rich, and you are poor, you are damned. So Orthodox Christianity absolutely denies that. Orthodox Christianity affirms that it is not important to be poor or rich in this world. You should be good, you should behave with love, with compassion, with empathy to other people, and you will be judged afterwards when Jesus will come again, second coming of Jesus, and He will judge you. He will judge everybody after resurrection. So present earthly life is just a small, small, infinitely small part of the real life of the immortal soul. That is normal Christian attitude. And Calvinism was total denial of this attitude. The God has knowledge of everything until the end, so He could not make error, mistakes, so if you are rich, you are chosen, you are blessed with the richness.

That is the kind of theology of capitalism, and I think that Max Weber has shown that in his sociological framework, and Werner Sommer has developed that. So that is the huge tradition, not necessarily Marxist tradition, but conservative tradition to criticize these Calvinist foundations of the modern Anglo -Saxon capitalism, liberalism, individualism. And that is the problem with the United States, because when you are in the United States and when you want sincerely to return to the traditional values, you have nothing but the father fathers who were Calvinists. So Mayflower was the group of Calvinists fleeing from Church of England, from Anglican church, in order to create totally different kind of culture, of society in the New World. That is the problem. For example, you personally or some other people, if you choose tradition of Islam, you have the sacred roots. If you choose Catholicism, maybe affected by modernity, but not totally modern as Protestantism.

When you are evangelical or Mormon or dispensationalist, you are obliged to create something imaginary, something completely out of the real relations to the foundations of the ancient roots of Christianity. You lack the sacred roots. Because the sacred roots of American civilization belong to Europe, belong to the pre -colonization time, to Middle Ages, and it is very difficult to restore this link. You have mentioned, for example, Libertas statue, but that is Hecata, Hecate, the great goddess of the hell of the ancient Greeks. Why she has a torch? Because she rules in eternal night. You have not a necessity to have a torch in your hands, in the daylight. It is a goddess of the hell of the night. That was more or less the origins of American civilization. It is a problem, so it is not easy for the present -day American conservatives, who are very critical, we could understand, well with modernity, with this abstain class, with this usurpation of the democracy, or this falsehood, all that.

But when you want, when you try to get back to your roots, to your sources, welcome to the Calvinist heretic group of the founding fathers of some messenry, some radicalism of the sects, extremist sects. They were not Zionists. Christian Zionism started precisely in the time of radical enlightenment in Holland, among the Dutch. And after that, that came to England, and was puritans and radical Protestants. After that, this Christian Zionism emigrated to the United States of America. And after that, this Christian Zionism emigrated to the United States. So after that, that was the Scofield Bible, dispensationalism, Plymouth Brethren, and so on. So it is not traditional. It is a kind of eschatological heresy. And that is the problem, metaphysical problem of American people. So when you try to get to the roots, your roots are rotten from the very beginning.

So, and that demands to make some extravagant choices for you, to join Catholicism, to join Islam, to join maybe Orthodox Church, so many. One of the most, most venerable representative of 20th century Orthodox sainthood is American, is Seraphim Rose. He was naturally born American. With no tradition, and he has chosen Christian, Russian Christian Orthodox Church, and he became almost a saint. For us, we, that is the cult of him. We consider this American, 20th century American modern man, we consider the archetype, the example of the sanctity of holiness of, in our Christian Orthodox Church. So, but that as well is a kind of limitation for American choice. So you are obliged somehow to embrace something that could appear to be not too traditional for your society, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Islam. So, but when you start to become American traditionalist, you are either Mormon, or dispensationalist, or Christians. Or Zionist, or Calvinist, and everything that is really, really traditional, Islam, Orthodoxy, or Catholicism becomes a kind of enemy.

And now we see around President Trump precisely this fight against everything that still is traditional in the United States. So that is the problem. And I'm not absolutely malzahing. It is not about about mockery. At American people, but that is strategy, a tragedy. And I think we feel the great content for American people, because they became a kind of hostages of this historical, social, economical theology, or the hostages of this specially and very, very heretic, I would say, eschatology.

Right. That makes me understand your idea and how you can relate traditionalism to your theology, which you stated earlier. Well, so what's the solution? You also said that you think American tradition is rotten to the core. And I don't want to believe that. I love this country. I don't want to think that it's all doom and gloom. We got to provide some hope. But now learning more about what the evangelical sect of Protestantism believes and the fact that they get subverted so easily with this megachurch culture that you can see epistemology, and you can see the epistemology, and you can see epic fury, and unconditional surrender, these giant posters, and it gets subverted by these preachers who are clearly in it just for money. I could say it's the Erica Kirk phenomenon, right? Mostly the boomer class, who is the majority of the voting bloc in America, they attend these sort of major stadium -like

rituals, and they all vote for the same neocons, the same evangelicals, the same people, which you rightly pointed out, believe in the Schofield Bible, which... Right. Professor Dugan, when was the Schofield Bible written?

So, Schofield Bible, that is a kind of commentary of a very small, small sect founded of Plymouth brothers, founded by British Protestants. And the commentary, very, very new and very, very particular sectarian commentaries, which are embedded in the text of the Bible, so when you read the Bible you could not make great difference between the real holy scripture and this modern commentary explaining that the end fate of the humanity will be played in Israel, and the Jews will return to their fatherland, and all western Christianity... Right... and Protestant Christianity should defend Jews representing different faiths, hoping they will convert in the end time into the Christianity. And that is why it is necessary to fight against the Gok. Gok was considered to be Russian Empire after that Soviet Union, now the Putin's Russia. So Gok is always situated in Eurasia, and identified with Russia, and helped Jews to destroy Amalek. And Amalek was the traditional enemy of Jewish people before Christ, and its image is applied to the Islamic world.

So the fight against Russians and Muslims become, in this Skopje, Bible, a kind of religious duty of all Christians. So that is the total reduction of the Holy Scriptures by small and not so much known sect. But when this Skopje Bible was distributed among American population, this difference, very few people could make, very few people could distinguish between the authentic authentic biblical text and this embedded so -called pseudo prophecy inside.

So I looked it up, it's 1909 it was created, and you were mentioning Gog and Magog, which is a similarity in Christianity to Islam and basic eschatology. Do you agree? Because it is speculated where this will be, where these two nations will actually be. Professor Jang speculates that the third Rome was in Moscow, but what would you, classify as Gog and Magog, Professor Jang?

Well, I mean, so first of all, I want to point out that there were three major events that led to Christian Zionism, right? So 1899 is when Theodore Herzl wrote his book, Judean Land, calling for a Jewish state. Then 1909 is the Skopje Bible, and in 1914, I believe, was the Balfour Declaration, okay? So this, all these things happened very quickly, basically, within the span of like 10, 20 years. So, all these things happened very quickly, basically, within the span of like 10, 20 years. So, I also want to go back to Professor Duggan's point about Calvinism, because Calvinism is still in America, but it's called like the gospel of wealth as practiced by people like Paula White, who is the spiritual advisor to Donald Trump. Okay, so Calvinism is still very much alive and powerful in America, and if you look at Calvinism, the underlying emotions driving Calvinism are fear and anxiety. And this,

and as Professor Dugan mentions, this was against the traditional religious practices of other traditions where the emphasis is on harmony, on balance, on happiness, on your relationship with God. And now communism, because without communism, it's really about fear and anxiety. So another way of saying this is that the underlying emotions of America are fear and anxiety. And you can see that in American society today, where even though America is the wealthiest society ever in human history. An average, like an average middle -class American lives better than a Roman emperor. And yet America is still one of the most depressed societies in human history, one of the most medicated, and one of the most polarized. So if you really want to transform America, you have to go to the, at the root of what's causing this fear and anxiety, which is, as Professor Dugan points out, is basically the Calvinist tradition. And so if America... America

is to redeem itself, or America is to become stronger, then it needs to go back to Christianity and re -examine the basic principles by which America is built. But to answer your question, what is Gog and Magog? What seems from what's happening, and I think Professor Dugan would agree with me, is that Gog and Magog is being interpreted as Persia and Russia.

Okay. So they will inevitably fight in the near future. And sometimes you speculate that it's around 200 years. I mean, it's still undetermined, and we can't figure that out completely. So is it safe to say, Professor Jang, that Christian Zionism, or even on a broader scale, evangelical Christianity is just a tool of Zionism?

Well, you could also make the argument that Zionism is a tool of Christian Zionists. Okay. So what I think happened was that these secret societies, Freemasons, were infiltrated by Cabalists. So basically, something called Frankists. And then this created Christian Zionism, which then, in order to achieve its eschatology, created Zionism. So it basically sponsored Theodor Herzl's book. So Theodor Herzl was not a well -known person. He was a journalist in Germany. But he had access to British royalty. And so I think that's actually the chain of events. You have the 17 Frankists, then you have the Freemasons, which then became infiltrated by the Frankists, which created Christian Zionism. And then Christian Zionists went on to conquer America, or the founding fathers were Freemasons and Cabalists. And then eventually, you have the creation of Zionism.

There was something really interesting. I saw yesterday, I saw these Chinese children speaking to a Western journalist. And they were asking him, do Americans eat people? Because we heard that Epstein eats people in America. So it's funny that the stereotype for so long, and I'm half Filipino myself, we grew up hearing from Americans that Asians eat dogs. And now we're hearing Chinese children say, Americans eat people. I'm wondering what the similarities are, what the ideas in China are about Zionism, but also, what's the ideas? What's the ideas about Zionism in Russia? I want to ask you, Alexander Dugin, it's very different, it seems like, from an American perspective. It seems like Russians have a separate relationship. And Putin is not as clear, from what I understand, and it doesn't seem like the same problem. Also, you have different Bolshevik history. What's the Russian relationship with Zionism?

So first of all, when we speak about Christian Zionism, Jewish Zionism, we need, as well, to mention so -called pseudo -messiahs of Jewish history, starting from Bar Kokhba and this Sabbatai Tsevi, Jacob Leiber Frank. And interesting that Christian Zionism, that in the earliest, earliest stage, what was before Nelson Derby and Plymouth Brazzers. Right. Right. Right. Right. But that was started with the so -called fifth monarchism. And that was idea that the traditional Rome is over and there is the fifth global empire. And Oliver Cromwell was considered to be this global emperor by this fifth monarchist around him. And at the same time, Menasseh Ben -Israel. Right. the Jewish rabbi in Dutch. He has said that that was not Anglo -Saxon global empire, but fifth monarchy will be Jewish when the Jews of all the world will come to the Palestine, and they will establish this global empire. That is precisely the first version of modern days Netanyahu, Ben -Gvir, or Smotrich, the greater Israel.

So that was planned in the same time in the 17th century, precisely in Amsterdam around the Dutch Protestants. And from this circle, John Locke has taken many of his inspirations. So everything is linked there. But I think that concerning Russian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church has nothing comparable with Christian Zionism or Protestantism. We are not against Judaism, but we consider that very special, very separate branch of the faith, different totally. And there are so many texts of Russian elders, Christian authorities, Christian Orthodox authorities, they prevented that the Antichrist will come from Judaism. So they will be arrogant people trying to impose their global rule, and they will be Antichrists. And so more or less the same was concerning Christian Zionists and Protestants or Calvinists. So we never, Russian, traditional Christian Orthodox Russian, never considered Judaism as a lie or Jews to be today, after Christ, chosen people.

They were. And we, so we, we affirm that, you know, they, they were the chosen people. And that was true, truth. But when Christ came, he has accepted all the other, all the other people, embraced them. And it is new Israel. New Israel is Christian Church. So after that, the chosen one, all the humanity, all the people who who should accept the knowledge, the new news, the good news of Christ. And that small group of Jews who still insist now, insist on their chosenness, they are a kind of matrix of Antichrist. So that is our traditional religion, religious general attitude. So I think that, Putin is very pragmatic. Stalin was communist. He was not a Christian believer, so he considered that Israel, modern -day Israel, could be a kind of tool to promote socialism and communism in the Middle East. After that, that wasn't the case, and the Jewish state, Israel, has changed this relation and adhered to the capitalist camp.

After that started some ideological tension between Soviet Union and Israel, but no theological basis. Putin is pragmatic leader. He is considered by us, by Christian Orthodox, as a very special historic person that embodied the catechonic functions so the idea to be the keeper in the front of the Antichrist. We project on him our Christian eschatological orthodox vision, but he behaves much more on the pragmatic, he is political realist. So we have not until now a direct confrontation with Israel. The Judaism is considered, as in Iran, the traditional belief, traditional faith in Russia with zero, zero pressure. So that was a minority faith that is guarded by the state. But what I could assure you that neither Putin, nor Russian government, nor Russian society has any feature similar to the Christian Zionism. It is about realism. It is about respect to the different faiths. And we see now that

geopolitically Israel becomes more and more aggressive element to destroy our allies, to undermine the harmony and the peace in the Middle East. But we blame much more American hegemony than Zionism. But now this collusion, this collusion between Christian Zionism of Trump, with its aggressivity, with its hegemony, with this imperialism, with this radical Antichristian elements you have mentioned, and collusion with this radical aggressive Jewish Israeli Zionism, that is seen by our society as a confirmation of the fears and predictions of our elders, Christian Orthodox elders, because it becomes more and more, it looks like Antichrist, including this posting of Trump or this sacrilegious affirmation, this idea that Trump is God, Trump is Pope, Trump is Saint, and he's refused to swear on the Bible in the second presidential term. So many elements now show that we are dealing with some eschatological moment in the history. We don't want that. We don't insist on that. Putin prefers to understand their political reality in geopolitical realist, realist terms.

But we could not prevent to see behind these events, a very alternative scenario.

So this is an opportunity to see if there's some back and forth here between you two. Professor Jiang, I don't know if you've heard about Professor Dugan's theory on the Eurasia unity. Is this something that Chinese people are aware of or speak about? Do you think that there are similarities between the two nations and something that there could be unity on?

Right. So an alternative to American hegemony is maybe Eurasian unity, right, especially between Russia, China and Iran. So if these three nations are able to create a trade bloc with BRICS as a framework, then this could easily extend to Europe and to Africa. To the rest of Southeast Asia. And in this formulation, there will be no one great power, right? China talks about the gold corridor, which is this blockchain -like gold -based financial system where gold is stored in different vaults across Eurasia. And this becomes the basis of a new financial system. And this is all plausible. Right. And I think this could be very good. The problem is that this would basically bankrupt America because America is a financial Ponzi scheme. It's $39 trillion in debt. And if people stop buying US Treasuries, then America would collapse. There would be absolutely nowhere to finance the $39 trillion debt. You would have economic collapse, civil war.

And so America right now is basically fighting for its life. In Iran. So you can make the argument that America has no choice but to fight this war in Iran to prevent a Eurasian movement from arising.

I liked the theory. Obviously, I don't think you believe it, because Trump seems like he's going through some sort of manic episode or demonic possession right now. But there's some theory that it's a 5D chess move. And he's fighting this war in Iran specifically to push the focus from the Middle East and getting oil through the Strait of Hormuz into the Middle East. And he's trying to get oil into the Western Hemisphere and relying upon oil from Venezuela or Canada. And this is why he's trying to, you know, he wants to invade Greenland. And he's going to block the trade routes and the sea route. So the focus can now be here where we have more protection because America, we're here surrounded by the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic Ocean. Is there some sort of basis in that claim? Because I think Alexander Dugin follows the belief that the Ukraine war was, you are a massive supporter of this war.

But also, I've seen in your lecture, Professor Jang, that the Ukraine war was beneficial for Russia's economy. They got to strengthen their military. And because so much military equipment has been produced, they get to make a lot of money. And overall, Russia benefited greatly.

So I've made the argument that Trump does have a plan. And basically, it's something called Greater North America, which is something that Peter Hegstaff has also talked about. Where America has control over Greenland, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras. And because Greater North America is so wealthy, and it's so huge, basically, basically becomes a continental fortress. And it's allowed to trade its resources with the rest of the world. And this will allow America to sustain its $39 trillion. They call it a technate. And this makes a lot of sense geopolitically. You basically go and destroy the GCC, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, which fuels Europe and East Asia. They don't have access to oil, but their entire economies are based on cheap energy. And so they're now forced to pivot to North America, which is the only supplier now that the entire Middle East is in flames. What's also been happening is that the American Navy has been targeting the United States, including Russian shadow fleet tankers.

So basically committing acts of piracy. There was, about a week ago, a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian oil depot, which basically took about 40 % of Russian oil exports offline. So you can make the argument that even though Trump is crazy and he's stupid, there are people behind him who understand how geopolitics work. And he's not. And they're trying to transition America from a financial empire into a resource empire. But then the question then is, how will the rest of the world respond? Because imagine a situation where America, it is in greater North America. It's a fortress. It's safe. And America is conducting all these wars overseas to destabilize the world, to force the world to become dependent on American energy, American financing, American armaments. And so the question then is, how will the world respond in such a scenario? And in the short term, I think it's impossible for the world to respond.

But maybe in the midterm, in the long term, the world will be forced to coalesce, maybe around Russia and China, in order to counter greater North America. So but I'd be interested in hearing Professor Dukin's perspective, please.

So it is difficult to judge. Well. It is difficult to judge. It is difficult to judge where Trump's madness stops and some rationale appears. So I could not, I could not be expert in that. So he seems to be very special psychologically. And at the same time, we could, maybe we couldn't grasp some hidden second plan scenario, scenario behind his behavior. So I think that maybe Trump was chosen as very specific, psychologically person by some Western deeper state, not just liberal globalist deep state, but deeper state who wanted to use these radical tools to rearrange the falling domination over the West with drastic radical measures. And after that, to say, oh, you're a scapegoat, you're your family, your MAGA group, we will destroy or kill all of you, we'll put you in prison for life sentences, but the situation will be changed already. So maybe it is some, some special kind of weapon, secret weapon of hyper globalists, not just liberal globalists, but ticknate, exactly.

Something that's considered to be a secret weapon of hyper globalists, not just liberal globalists, but to walk, walk globalist agenda as some, some obstacle, as we see in Peter Thiel or, um, Karp, Alex Karp, Technological Republic, this idea. So enough with the humanitarian, uh, hypocrisy. Let's present the power as such, that nude, uh, naked Western power, hegemony, domination, in open. And Trump fits very well to that. So he is obviously mad. So everybody could say, oh no, this madman has, has done that, but without return to the previous pre pre madness conditions, everything will be done by this special persons. And he will be brutally sacrifice, uh, sacrificed with all his people, maybe with including with Israel. I, I, I see that, uh, some Israelis, they tried to find a, the plan B for them for an urgent time from in the, in different places.

They, uh, um, now they are buying the territories in order to, to, to secure some safe, safe territory for if they will be obliged to flee from the, uh, Palestine. So I, I think that is. Um. So there's possible possible solution of all that, but, uh, with this radical and mat aggression or Trump, maybe the, the, uh, uh, deeper state, deeper, not deep, deeper state wants to secure. It's to prolong it's hegemony, exactly to securing access to oil that burning a middle East on destroying, uh, the, uh, uh, uh. contacts and ties between Russia and Europe, between Russia and China, to create a kind of global war, and after that puts Trump out with everybody around him. And that could be the kind of rationale, that could be Plan B or a fourth -dimensional checkmate, so something like that. But I think that it is possible, and maybe it is so, but maybe Trump understands what role he plays, maybe not.

But that doesn't matter. So maybe he's just brutally used in order to make a kind of radical effort to secure Western hegemony more, so avoid this direct fall, confronting with multipolarity, multipolar world, emerging with more and more power. And I think that today it is very important how we react, how the world reacts, how American people react. Because some power in the shadow just uses you, just uses American people, American hopes, American beliefs, American desires, in order to sacrifice all that to some radical vision of abstain type of elite. And when they say they eat children, it seems to be not. Not mythology, not conspiracy theory, some texts, some coding words in abstain files, they are testimony of this terrible, terrible state of mind and psychology of the liberal Western, post -liberal already, post -liberal Western elite. And concerning Ukraine, Professor Dzhank is totally correct. This war helped to

us to... To recenter our economy, to place the major attention to the sovereignty, to our industry, and we are, that is resurrection of Russian technological sovereignty. It is not easy because we were part of the global economy and now we are obliged to concentrate on our own resources and that gave, that gave and gives, is giving now, the new, new chances, to Russia. We're becoming stronger and stronger and stronger. And I think that we need to, to, to pay more attention to, to the humanity because we are not alone. We Russians, we are not alone in this world. There is China, there is Iran, there is Islamic world. There is Western people who are hostages in this very cruel, cruel game. So I think that we need to... To explain to the other, our, our mode of behavior. So we are not any more imperialist. We don't want to occupy neither Europe nor Asia. We

are satisfied with our own zone of influence in Eurasia, and we are ready to accept the other poles, not only Chinese pole, Indian pole, Islamic pole, but we, we are ready to accept the great and fundamental Western pole. And... We treat it with respect, but we deny one thing, that supremacy of the West, so hegemony. So the world is not any more unipolar. And if someone in the West could accept multi -polarity, it immediately becomes from the enemy or fool and becomes the partner, ally or friend. And we... We, Putin, for example, and we Russians, we did see that in Trump in the first term, in the second, more than that. We believed Trump in Trump. We heard his strategy, her slogans, and we are almost happy with that. So let America, let United States, the United States concentrate on the Western hemisphere. Let solve its inner problem. If you are, if you have enough with woke liberals, transgenders, illegal immigration, you are right.

We could support that. That is, that is correct. But when Trump started to say that there is no abstain list, that is a hoax, when he started to betray his own most, most loyal, most loyal friends and supporters. And he just... when he started the new wars with Iran, with Venezuela, with Cuba, when he started to support the genocide of Gaza by Netanyahu, I think we have revised our attitude to Trump. And he didn't stop finally the support for Ukrainian regime. He promised that, but he didn't do that.

Right. So I want to ask the both of you, I'll start with Professor Jenks. You were mentioning the deep state. So essentially, your belief is that Trump is, and this is hardly a conspiracy, that he is being controlled by different forces and he's being used as a tool to push an agenda that's against America's interests. So right now, we are back in the war. The ceasefire talks failed in Islamabad, Pakistan. J.D. Vance, the vice president, was there. But behind him was Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff. These are real estate moguls. So you keep saying the deep state. Is controlling Trump. Is it just simply the Chabad Lubavitch sect? Because Kushner has no position in the White House. He's not part of this administration yet. He is one of the lead negotiators in the Middle East with the Gaza peace talks. And here he is in Pakistan, right next to J.D. Vance.

And the theory is that we were pulled back into this war and the ceasefire talks failed because Israel wants to continue bombing Lebanon. Professor Jenks, is the deep state simply just Chabad Lubavitch?

Right. Right. So I think rather than say there's one group of people pulling the strings, I think it's just better to say that there's a convergence of interests. Meaning that you have different political factions who need Trump to start a war against Iran. And Chabad Lubavitch are the useful idiots or the scapegoats that can be put out front in order to attract people's attention, while the more powerful people, who are working behind the scenes, manipulating scenes, manipulating things behind the scenes. So if you think about George Kushner, if you're really powerful, he would not be in front of the television cameras taking all the blame for the failed negotiations, not just in Ukraine, but also in Iran and in Gaza as well. It seems to me that Trump, Kushner, Wyckoff, Chabad Lubavitch, all these people are being set up as scapegoats. So I think it's just better to say that there's a convergence of interests.

So you have the military -industrial complex, you have the national security apparatus, you have secret societies like the Freemasons, the Rosicrucians, Knights Templars, you have Wall Street and the state of London. Basically, it's a lot of people's interest to have this war in Iran. It's really a question of who's going to work, who's going to be the vanguard, and who's going to be the scapegoat. And so the people we're seeing right now are just the vanguard, the scapegoats. So Professor Dugin, what is the relationship that Russia has with Chabad Lubavitch?

We consider that as a religious group. We have two currents in Russia, traditional Jews and this Hasidic current. So our government could not say, you are right and you are wrong, because we could not judge the contradictions in the Jewish community. And because Hasidic movement is very active, Lubavitchers precisely, they represent one part of religious Judaism accepted as traditional, branch of religion of minority, and traditional Jews, they represent the other part. So they have contradictions concerning possibility to teach the Kabbalah to not all the Talmudic persons. So they disagree about that, because Lubavitchers, they pretend that everybody should, could, every Jew, not everybody, every Jew could know Kabbalah, including the women and young people. And that was strongly, strongly prohibited in traditional Judaism. So Russian government accept both Jewish sect as a part or occurrence of tradition and nothing more. So the absolute majority of Russians are Christian Orthodox.

And between Holy Patriarch Suryu and Mr. Putin, there are relations as symphony. A symphony that is Byzantine concept developed of Justinian, Emperor Justinian, that there are distribution of power between Imperial head Emperor Tsar, Caesar, and Great Grand Patriarch. That is not just religion. That is more than religion. That is kind of political theology. And that is accepted somehow in Russia. So other minorities as Islam or Judaism or Buddhism, including different small, small confessions, they are accepted, traditional, only traditional. Traditional confessions, traditional, traditional religions are accepted, but they don't play any political role. So they, they, their power is limited to their respective communities. And Lubavitchers, they exist in that. They suffer no, no pressure, neither political nor social. So they are totally free as all other representatives of traditional confessions and traditional religions in Russia. So when they say, say that Putin is manipulated by them, that, that totally, totally, totally fake, fake news.

So Putin is motivated by interests of Russia. He is Christian Orthodox. That's very important. He is not just the head of the state with the majority of Orthodox Christians, but he himself is practicing Christian Orthodox. Right. So he is a member of the Christian Orthodox faith and church, and he has very balanced and very positive, very respectful relations to all kinds of other traditional religions.

Right. So I was watching your 60 Minutes interview and they were calling you, and many articles say this, that you are one of Putin's spokespersons and you're basically like the intelligence in his ear. One thing I respect greatly about Putin is you can see him holding a large pew of the Quran and he kissed the Quran. And on the Eid prayer, there are massive amounts of Muslims in Russia who are going out to pray. And the relationship that Islam has in Russia is completely different from the relationship that the United States has with Islam. In fact, we often blame Islam for all the problems we accuse Muslims of terrorism and pretty much every accusation that Muslims are the victim of. It seems like Israel is responsible for the exact same actions. Yeah. I'm also hearing that a lot of Muslim Muslims are the victims of Islam. I mean, in the end, there's a conundrum. that there's pictures of Putin and some Chabad Lubavitch rabbis, if I'm not mistaken.

It's a multi -part question, but so you're saying that he is not manipulated and that he has a strong relationship with Orthodox Christianity. What is the overall Russian perception of Putin's relationship with Zionism? And why do you think that Islam is more, it seems like from the outside in that Islam is more widely accepted in Russia than it is in America, even though Russia is far more Christian?

So first of all, we need to make a kind of difference because the Muslim population we have in Russia, they were Muslim from old age. So they were members of our society, of our country, and they didn't come from outside. They are our own Russian Muslims. So they lived here in Russia for ages, and they were the part of our society, our state for a long time. So they are Russian first and Muslim second. So they consider this loyalty to the Russia as the part of their identity. So they were not brought or converted into a Muslim. So they were not brought or converted into a Muslim. So they were not brought or converted into a Muslim. So they were not brought or converted into a Muslim. So they are normal Russian Muslims living here. That is their motherland, their fatherland, Russia, and they are loyal patriots, an absolute majority.

They represent second religion in Russia, and we respect them very much. And that is, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For example, my Chechen friends, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For example, my Chechen friends, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For example, my Chechen friends, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For example, my Chechen friends, they fight for Russian interests in Russia, they Dogon fights. Russia, they Dogon fights. citizens, not only political. So that is the big difference. So we have no reason to hate Islam, neither inside of Russia nor outside. Most Islamic countries outside of Russia are our political allies or neutral. So we have no Islamic country that professes on the official level the hatred to Christian Orthodox Church, to Russia, no one. There are some Salafi radical tendencies, but we consider them to be tool of Mossad and of CIA. And normal Islam, traditional Islam outside of Russia is considered to be very friendly and ally societies.

So, that is not about to choose between Jews and Muslims. It is to choose between Jews and Muslims. So, we are in the middle of augo Jews or Muslims. We have no such problem. But if Israel, not Jews, Israel under Netanyahu behaves itself like the murderous entity of killing the people, striking the innocent children, killing the chief of sovereign state of Iran, we could not support that. We are against it by human considerations, by our feeling or what justice is. It is not about to choose between Islam or Judaism. We consider Judaism absolutely legitimate, normal, religious tradition. But when we see behavior of radical far -right Zionists, we are against that. And when we see what role the people play in trying to secure the global domination of the West, we could not respect them. So we understand that they exist. We are dealing realistically with them.

We don't blame them as such, but we very severely reject their mode of behavior. So we are against genocide of people in Gaza. We are in favor of the suffering policy of Palestinians. We are in favor of the Lebanese fighting for their freedom and justice and their fatherlands. We are totally supporting Iran in this just war. But we don't support Iran against, for example, United Emirates or against Qatar or against Saudi Arabia. We want to stop this war. We don't choose between Shia and Sunni. We consider the Muslim world as our potential great partner and friend. But when our friends are attacked severely and unjustly, without any justice, normally we come to help. That is normal behavior. Realist behavior, there is nothing religious in that. But at the same time, it's interesting that our realist geopolitical behavior coincides somehow with the end -time agenda. That is the kind of paradox. So

we could evaluate, we could describe what is going on in the Middle East, in the same time, by two different layers of reality. The normal geopolitics, realistic calculation, and some international norms that Russia defends in spite of all. At the same time, we could merge that. We could project that on the geography of the end of the time, the geography of the prophecy. ... Now they coincide almost perfectly. That is a very unique moment. So when the everyday reality starts to intermingle with the metaphysical, eschatological events, that is very, very special.

Right. I want to get to Ukraine war with Russia here. But first, I want to see, Professor Zhang, if you have any major points of contention with Professor Dugin and maybe Russia in general, if Alexander Dugin actually is the brains behind modern Russia. What is your major grievance with the modern Russian empire or anything that Alexander Dugin has said so far or from what you've seen beforehand? Right.

So I have quite a few questions. My first question is, I don't really fully understand the concept of the catacomb, right? Because the catacomb is the force that keeps the Antichrist at bay. But if the Antichrist system is arising and it is going to consume the world anyway, my question is, why stop it rather than just let it consume the world? And then from that, seek salvation and redemption. I really don't understand the concept. Of the catacomb.

So thank you. That is a very deep question. So first of all, catacomb, it is traditional Christian Orthodox concept, and it is linked not only to the church but to the state as well. So the catacomb was considered to be the Roman Empire. And in our case, we consider ourselves to be the heirs of the Byzantine Empire after its fall. And so. So, third rule. So our rule on the global map of the end of the time, it is cataconic. It is catacomb to be to play the role of the sacred Christian Orthodox Empire or state sacred state empire in the in the sense of the sacred state sacred political entity in order to prevent the coming of Antichrist. And. You put right, and there are many texts of Agamben, of other author following Carl Schmitt, who has introduced the concept of catacomb and political science and Taubes as well, Jewish author about Western eschatology, very interesting.

They, they have formulated the same argument, if the Antichrist should come and he should. So why not to get him rule its short time in order to precipitate, to accelerate the second coming, coming of Christ, why not? So that is the kind of negative catacomb. So catacomb delays the Antichrist fights again that not letting it come and destroy everything and proceed to hasten to accelerate. the second coming. So on the philosophical level, we could, we could accept that. But morally, morally, we have our special cataconic, cataconic ethics, the tradition. So you should always stayed with truth and never let the evil and the lie to enter in the world until the last moment. So you should not. accelerate or let the time to be accelerated. If it is necessary, you should delay them. If necessary, you should be killed on the cataconic path, but not let the evil come in. So that is a very, very special moral attitude.

So never side with the evil. Never. Including when the evil is necessary. Maybe, maybe for God's plans. But we have our mission here in the world and the history. Stay against antichrist until the last breath. So that is kind of cataconic ethics. And that is perceived very deeply by our society, by our government. So in spite of all other considerations, we should accomplish our mission. Maybe it will bring us to our end, our death. But death, cataconic death, it is the duty, the spiritual, historical, sacred duty of Russian people. And now we consider more and more the modern, Abyssinian West to be antichrist. So our mission is acquiring now the new dimension. For example, we stood against Catholicism, we stood against Protestantism, but we still were inside of Christianity. So one branch of Christianity, our branch, your branch. But now it is not about one branch of Christianity against the other.

That is episteme, globalist, totally post human, post capitalist, perverted Western civilization. It is pure antichrist. It is not just suggestion, just presumption that maybe the West is wrong, maybe Western Christianity is not so sacred as our Orthodox church. It was in the history just presumption, just consideration. And now. before our eyes, the veil is taken off, and we see these three millions. It's enough. Maybe there are more three millions of Epstein files, but we see now the real reality, real face of Western ruling elite, not only left, liberals as well, right. So, it is uniparty. It is not just left globalism as we presumed. Now we see as well the path of the right, the Zionists, other people in the same network, Epsteinian network. So, I have spoken recently with one bishop, Christian Orthodox, and he has said, considering or reading Epstein's files, we remember, we are reminded about what our elders, spiritual authorities, wrote during all last decades about the real nature of the West.

And this young bishop, he has said, we didn't believe too much. We thought that it is some exaggeration, mystical vision. Maybe the West is not like that. And now watching, seeing Epstein's file, we see that our elders, authorities, affirming that the West is, modern West is Antichrist, and that is absolutely right. That is big religious confirmation. So, Epstein's files are much more than just sexual scandal or sex trafficking. Something much more important. That is a very, very persuasive eschatological sign that is read by civilizations, by humanity. If you are like that, if you tolerate that, and zero arrests after all.

I was going to ask you that question if you were going to say that the West is basically the Antichrist, because the catacomb is the force resisting against the coming of the Antichrist. So, do you believe, two -part question, is the catacomb, is that the Russian empire? And does that just mean, well, going back earlier, I was asking you what are the solutions for the American empire right now, if we're becoming more delusioned with this war, or disillusioned with this war? if people are wondering about the Epstein files, is, in your view, Professor Dugan, is the American empire strictly anti -Christ evil?

So it always depends. So our Christian doctrine affirms that there is no predestination. There is the freedom. We profoundly believe in freedom of the human soul. So there is some predisposition of history. There are some coincidences between politics and the spiritual level of the reality, but the human soul, human being, is always free, totally and absolutely free. So if you follow, if you choose to be anti -Christ, you are. If you continue to go this way, it is up to you to decide who are you. We could not say, we, for sure, we observe the signs of the beast in the Western modern politics, in modern society, but we strongly believe in the possibility to change everything, to change the nature of American society, of Western society, of modernity, because never, never you will be anti -Christ before you say yes to anti -Christ. Before you sign with anti -Christ the treaty, the covenant, abstain covenant.

So if you resist, if you want justice, if you want to follow different, different route, different path, you always can change everything. So it is about you to accept the role of anti -Christ or reject and when Trump started his second term campaign, for voting campaign, we have seen, we have remarked some signs of reversal of this situation. And we believe that. We believed in American voters, in American people, in American Trumpists, because they have shown the will to overcome this insane, globalist, woke, perverted culture, cancel culture, globalism, and they promise to concentrate on domestic affairs and to restore traditional values. And we have decided, maybe there is the God, has given the American people one chance more, because never antichrist will come if you not welcome him, if you not call for him, if you don't invite him previously. So, in order to be possessed by a demon, you should say, yes, come in, you are welcome, enter in myself.

But if enough people in America, and I believe there are many people, millions, maybe, maybe a tenth of millions of normal American people who don't, don't welcome or invite antichrist in themselves. And we are in total solidarity with American people. So, you can be just antichristian West, or you can be humanity. You could be your own society, could be the real, real humans who choose to stay human, to defend the human society, to defend defend the spiritual identity and your roots, your deep tradition. And in that case, you could avoid that. So we will change as well our predictions or postpone them or delay them. Everything depends on the human soul, immortal human soul and human heart.

One more short follow -up question before I go to Professor Zhang. What was the meeting with Putin and Epstein about? Because to push back a little, you are placing all the blame on the Epstein files on America, which is, you know, it's all over the Epstein files. He did live in Manhattan and he had a resort in Palm Beach, Florida, one in New Mexico, and he has ties with the American government. But he also seemed to have some sort of Russian connection. Obviously, that's overstated in the media. People like Piers Morgan did try to insinuate that he was overconfident. He's a Russian spy, which is blatantly ignoring all the connections he has with Trump, with Wall Street, with the Rothschilds and with so many people in the American financial and political elite. What was the relationship with Putin and Epstein?

So to say the truth, I presume that some quantity of Russian oligarchs and maybe the path, not too big path, but path of Russian elites had some kind of connection with Putin. I think that there is some connection with the Epstein network, and we need to study that because when we tried to unite with the West and when our government in the 90s declared that we, Russia, we are just the part of the West, this kind of convergence between Western society and Russian economical, political elites started as well. So the communication between special services, the oligarchs, they shared their common yachts, their common castles, and there are some cases already investigated in Russia, the connections of some people of Russia inside of Epstein class, because it is universal, but because the West... The West wanted to be something universal. We see among Epstein people, the people from Arab world, the rich monarchs or the people of royal family, at least.

So we see as well there some Russian oligarchs, and that is plague. That is a kind of... A kind of... A kind of... A kind of toxic ambience or illness, sickness that was distributed through different societies in Europe and America and Middle East, and it affected Russia and Poland and other countries. But the measure, the measure of Russian involvement in Epstein class is relatively small. Not to speak about manipulation. We see clearly that is Rothschild's family behind, Mossad behind, the very deep connections with CIA and other secret services of the West, but it is absolutely impossible to KGB to manipulate Epstein class. Because the West is dealing with... The West is dealing with... The West is dealing with... The West is dealing with... The West is dealing with the phantom pain about KGB. The modern KGB is called FSB. It's totally different. So it could not... It could not dare to start something like that.

It is totally defensive. It is on defensive mode. Maybe it is not so good. I would prefer to FSB to act more proactively, not just reaction. But we... We are not. have what we have. We have this defensive attitude toward the West, and that is all. So the idea that Russian modern FSB be capable to manipulate the whole West, it is the myth of the Cold War. So that belongs to totally different epoch. It is absolutely not realistic concerning Russian modern days. Russia is at the third stage of revival. We just became normal. We were completely out of line, totally confused during last 30 years. So we just came into focus with reality. Once the revolution had already started, there was little than absolution, a discovered revolution. paralyzed and seduced by the West. And now we are coming to our deep, deep identity and roots. And we were totally incapable to manage such huge and evil thing as Epstein class.

Okay. Professor Zhang, are there any disagreements you have? And what is your perception of what professor Dugan just said about the relationship that the West has with the antichrist?

Um, um, I mean, I, I agree overall that, um, Western civilization is based on certain ideas that are anti -human. For example, um, the idea of individuality, um, the idea of rationality, um, the idea of, um, the idea of sort of, um, of centering, um, of, of, um, formless model idea of rationality, um, the idea of permanent眼睛 projection measures, um, the idea of supplant -presenting, which is the basis of science, and the idea of consumerism, utilitarianism. I think that these ideas have diverged from the classical humanistic tradition, which is the cause of so much misery and discontent in the world. So, people just assume that the Enlightenment, the Sonic Revolution, marked this incredible revolution in human affairs, and it's what's led to globalization, the internet, tremendous wealth creation, space travel, but at the same time, we have to look at human psychology and how miserable people are, and how hopeless and helpless people feel. Nowadays, this is an idea that I've been struggling with a long, long time.

But I think that where Professor Duggan and I will have some differences is that for a lot of people, this system is extremely attractive, and they will fight to the death to maintain this system. So I feel that in Russia. In Russia, there's just more urgency to fight the Antichrist. But maybe in more materialistic societies, such as China, it's really a question of how do you maintain this system, because it's brought so much happiness and prosperity to so many people, right? So, Chinese like to say that after China opened up to the world, billions of people were lifted out of poverty. So you've never seen before. So much wealth creation. So I wonder how attractive this idea of the Antichrist, and trying to stop the Antichrist, how attractive it is to people. I wonder if given a choice, how many people will choose to resist?

And yeah.

How many people choose to resist? So I think you do point out. Well, the underlying despair, not to make it doom and gloom, but many people are feeling exactly what you just described. I just did a podcast with Bradley Martin yesterday, and he was saying how exhausted he feels now. And he reminded me of the last stream we did, Professor Jang, where we both agreed that the new strategy seems to not be blatant censorship, but flooding an algorithm with tons of information all at once. So the truth is out there. It's been readily available, but it's mixed up with so much anger and negative discourse that people feel drained just looking at it. And so the new tactic is not to blatantly censor, but to flood with so much information that you don't have the energy to care. I think the Lebanon phenomenon is a perfect example where we just finished seeing the genocide in Gaza happen.

So now that you see a million people displaced in Lebanon, you see villages wiped out. So many people in America just don't have the energy to even care. They used to care about Epstein, and then he became a meme. Maybe that was intelligence agency pushing this to try to normalize it. But people have too many things at once to care about. Not only that, in their personal lives, they have to care about their job, they have to care about their debt. What do you think are the solutions? How do we push this in the right direction? Because it's too defeatist, I believe. To just be like, you know what? Blatantly say the West is the antichrist and there's no actual way out. There's got to be some light at the end of the tunnel, correct?

I think having these sort of debates and discussions is really key. So I really enjoyed hearing Professor Duggan's perspective. So thank you so much, Nico, for setting this up. And I'm really sympathetic towards his viewpoints. And I feel, you know, rather than just name calling and saying, you know, I'm a CCCC, I'm a CCCC spy. And Professor Duggan is a KGB spy, even though the KGB doesn't exist anymore. I think it's really important to have these transnational, you know, international conversations where different perspectives are brought together and where there's rigorous debate. And unfortunately, you know, people are so used to name calling. People are so used to ad hominem attacks. And we have to return to a tradition where. Yeah. Ideas are given the proper space to flourish. And you do that by engaging in debate and discussion with people who you don't agree with, but who are open to debate and discussion.

Absolutely. I think this was it's pretty interesting. This panel has a lot of different perspectives. And although we perhaps could have went a little more into eschatology, we did cover a lot of the points in the PowerPoint. I think we. There was a good summary. Of a lot of different world events and what's happening around, you know, if you're representing Russia, if you're representing China and over here, if I'm representing America or Islam, whatever people want to say, I think this was a very interesting dialogue. And I appreciate the both of you for coming on. And I look forward to having more.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. Professor.

Please. Please. All right. Sorry. I would like to only to point out, maybe to or to respond to what Mr. Zhang has said. So obviously, there is a huge amount of people in China or in Russia who would prefer material material prosperity to apply it for a catechum. And that was always the case. And when Christ came, the absolute majority was involved in the. And they were the same way with Noah, Noah was the lose was a fluid plot. So that is normal. But that was not materially in interest that govern the history. History obtains its meaning when it comes to the ideas and the ideas could be ignored by the people. And the people prefer normal everyday life to these ideas, but they are living in the illusion. And Hegel called that the trick of the universal reason, universal intellect. He is promoting the spiritual agenda of ideas who really rule the history.

And the humankind, the humanity plays here the role, but without knowing. So I think that the idea to defend Catechon is understood by small, small minority of modern Russian. We are speaking Russian. We are talking about that. Putin knows that. Some elite, spiritual, scientific elite knows that. But that's all. But in spite of that, all our history was moved by this Catechonic function, function, Catechonic mission. In spite, in spite of the people. And the people are materialists. But the history is not the history. It is the logic of divine providence. And... The same, I think. So if we ask Russian people, maybe they would prefer the West, the comfort, the Western values. And maybe some negative Western values, for example, individualism and so on. And if we ask some American people, maybe they will choose spiritual, or vice versa. So that is about the freedom. Freedom for you, but freedom for us. We could say yes to Catechonic mission, unconsciously or consciously.

And we could say no. We prefer to be abstained civilization. Maybe we will not be eaten finally. And we will be among those who were invited to eat children. So it is just hope of the people, of the humanity, of the society. And this decision is always, always free. And that, I think, is the chance for America. So if you prefer to be on the side of God, you will decide with your demonic elite. And you will, you will, yourself will deal with this satanic anti -Christian elite. Because it is not about the majority of normal people. The good and just American people. It is just about hijacking your idea, hijacking your soul and pushing it into the abyss. It is not your choice. It is just violence against you. And the same violence we feel by this materialism, by the attraction to the worldly values in spite of the spiritual values.

I think something like that makes sense. Maybe here I am not expert. Maybe something like that we could trace as well in Chinese society. Because accepting so many aspects of Western civilization, maybe China is somehow undermines its own traditional values. So we see this huge, I mean perfect, technologically perfect, incredible, futuristic cities with no children on the streets. So the people are individualistic. They are prosperous. They are Chinese. They are proud to be Chinese patriots. So they share totally this, the common ideas. But they are lost sometimes. Psychologically lost. Because the West is toxic somehow. So you could accept and transform. Transubstance. Some elements of this Western materialist and capitalist poison. But there are some measures. If you overcome it, the situation could be different. So I have the great hope in Chinese culture and Chinese future. That is amazing, amazing how you could combine the traditional values with material technological prosperity.

It is amazing. That is something. It is a miracle. So I admire that. But I can see that maybe it will be moment to pay for that. So if you take too much poison, it will affect you sooner or later. But it is up to you to decide the measure. And I think that is totally... You are free too. Chinese are free. Americans are free. Russian are free. Muslims are totally free. You can say I am for that. I accept. You can say I deny. And nobody could oblige us to make not free decision.

That was my favorite point of yours today. Professor Dugan saying that it is up to you to allow the demon to enter. I think that is an important fact to remember. Thank you so much to the both of you for coming on. I greatly appreciate this conversation. And Professor Zhang, tomorrow we are supposed to speak with Professor Morandi, correct? Yes.

Absolutely. So at what time?

I do not hear the confirmation from him yet. I need to check. I will make sure to email it to you. I know it is very late over there in Beijing. It is about almost 11 p.m. for you, right?

Yes. That is right. Yes.

So I still need to hear the response from him. I will try to get it around the same time. So probably morning for you is better. Yes. Yes. Iran time is a little bit different. What time is it? Are you in Moscow, Professor Dugan? Yes. So it must be very late over there.

It is six o 'clock. Six o 'clock. And I presume in Iran there is seven and a half, something like that.

So I will try to get it. And if Professor Morandi cannot come, would you like to speak to Dave Smith?

Yes. Absolutely. Yes. He is trying to prevent Dave Smith. I mean, like, yes. Okay.

So that will – I will message both of them and I will email you. I hope you get some rest. Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. And I will speak to you guys soon. Thank you. God bless. Okay. Bye -bye. Bye. Bye -bye. Thank you so much.