The End Times Are A Geopolitical Machine

Dugin's first point is that Chinese culture is usually balanced, cyclical, and harmony-seeking rather than organized around a final battle. That is why Jiang matters in this conversation. Dugin calls him exceptional because Jiang can move through Zionist, Islamic, Russian Orthodox, and Kabbalistic end-times frameworks from inside a Chinese civilizational background that does not naturally center the radical feeling of the end Source trail 9:24 Maybe the majority lack this radical feeling of the end, of something irreversible, something linear, the linear time, irreversible fight between good and evil. Everything is not to Chinese. But we are living in the wor... .

Jiang's own self-placement is not church loyalty Source trail 11:52 Yeah. So for most of my life, I'm atheist. China is an atheist society. I didn't grow up with any religious tradition. And quite honestly, I was very skeptical towards religion all my life, especially towards Christiani... . He says he grew up in atheist China, spent most of his life skeptical of religion, and only in the last two years moved toward a Gnostic framework through eschatology, Kabbalah, and geopolitics. That matters because he is not answering as a priest. He is reading belief as world-model, empire logic, and historical force Source trail 10:5711:52 So the word literally means the study of the end. And what eschatology often refers to is each religious tradition's understanding of the endpoint of history. Why are we here? Where are we going? Where do we come from?...Yeah. So for most of my life, I'm atheist. China is an atheist society. I didn't grow up with any religious tradition. And quite honestly, I was very skeptical towards religion all my life, especially towards Christiani... .

When the host asks about decaying Western values, Jiang does not begin with TV shows, decadence, or Trump's Easter posts. He begins with 1694: the Bank of England Source trail 19:24 Right. So I think the root of a problem is 1694, because that is when the Bank of England was first chartered. And the Bank of England, the idea was that it would take transnational capital and lend it to the nation sta... . The bank lets transnational capital lend to the nation-state with Parliament as guarantor. Kings used to run out of money, die, or refuse repayment. The new machine lets Britain keep borrowing and keep fighting until Napoleon is finally exhausted. Empire is born as a financial technology Source trail 19:2420:23 Right. So I think the root of a problem is 1694, because that is when the Bank of England was first chartered. And the Bank of England, the idea was that it would take transnational capital and lend it to the nation sta...It could fight a war against someone like Napoleon and keep on fighting until Napoleon was finally defeated. So it took six, seven wars, seven wars for Napoleon to be defeated by the British. And the British lost six of... .

The philosophy follows the machinery. Locke sanctifies private property. Hume weakens confidence in truth and intuition. Bentham makes pleasure the measure of good. Dugin then pushes the chain through social Darwinism, Ayn Rand, Calvinist wealth theology, and a Protestant America cut off from older sacred roots. The result is a civilization where wealth can look like divine election, poverty can look like damnation, and people become hostages of their own economic theology Source trail 31:26 And now we see around President Trump precisely this fight against everything that still is traditional in the United States. So that is the problem. And I'm not absolutely malzahing. It is not about about mockery. At A... .

The Scofield Bible becomes the episode's example of commentary turning into scripture Source trail 33:2035:05 So, Schofield Bible, that is a kind of commentary of a very small, small sect founded of Plymouth brothers, founded by British Protestants. And the commentary, very, very new and very, very particular sectarian commenta...So the fight against Russians and Muslims become, in this Skopje, Bible, a kind of religious duty of all Christians. So that is the total reduction of the Holy Scriptures by small and not so much known sect. But when th... . Dugin says a small Protestant sect embedded its end-times interpretation inside the Bible, making many readers unable to distinguish holy text from pseudo-prophecy. In that frame, Russia becomes Gog, Islam becomes Amalek, and fighting Russians and Muslims becomes religious duty Source trail 33:2035:05 So, Schofield Bible, that is a kind of commentary of a very small, small sect founded of Plymouth brothers, founded by British Protestants. And the commentary, very, very new and very, very particular sectarian commenta...So the fight against Russians and Muslims become, in this Skopje, Bible, a kind of religious duty of all Christians. So that is the total reduction of the Holy Scriptures by small and not so much known sect. But when th... .

Jiang tightens the chronology: Herzl, Scofield, Balfour, all close together in his telling. Then he brings the argument back to American emotion. Calvinism is still alive as the gospel of wealth, and its underlying emotions are fear and anxiety Source trail 36:1737:13 Well, I mean, so first of all, I want to point out that there were three major events that led to Christian Zionism, right? So 1899 is when Theodore Herzl wrote his book, Judean Land, calling for a Jewish state. Then 19...and as Professor Dugan mentions, this was against the traditional religious practices of other traditions where the emphasis is on harmony, on balance, on happiness, on your relationship with God. And now communism, bec... . America can be the richest society in human history, with an average middle-class life better than a Roman emperor, and still become depressed, medicated, and polarized. If America is to redeem itself, it has to re-examine the Christian principles underneath the machine.

The most provocative reversal comes when the host asks whether evangelical Christianity is a tool of Zionism. Jiang says the inverse may be closer: Zionism can be read as a tool of Christian Zionists Source trail 38:3939:06 Okay. So they will inevitably fight in the near future. And sometimes you speculate that it's around 200 years. I mean, it's still undetermined, and we can't figure that out completely. So is it safe to say, Professor J...Well, you could also make the argument that Zionism is a tool of Christian Zionists. Okay. So what I think happened was that these secret societies, Freemasons, were infiltrated by Cabalists. So basically, something cal... . The claim is speculative and should stay attributed, but its function in the interview is clear. It makes political Zionism part of a Protestant eschatological machine rather than simply an outside lobby acting on America.

Dugin answers from the Russian side. Russian Orthodoxy respects Judaism as a separate faith, rejects Christian Zionism, and reads Putin pragmatically. Orthodox Russians may project a catechonic role onto Putin Source trail 46:09 After that started some ideological tension between Soviet Union and Israel, but no theological basis. Putin is pragmatic leader. He is considered by us, by Christian Orthodox, as a very special historic person that emb... , but Putin himself remains a political realist. The present danger, for Dugin, is that Trump's Christian Zionism and aggressive Israeli Zionism now look like confirmation of older Orthodox fears Source trail 47:44 geopolitically Israel becomes more and more aggressive element to destroy our allies, to undermine the harmony and the peace in the Middle East. But we blame much more American hegemony than Zionism. But now this collus... .

Jiang's alternative to American hegemony is Eurasian unity: Russia, China, and Iran using BRICS as a frame, extending toward Europe, Africa, and Southeast Asia. The financial core is a gold corridor Source trail 50:05 Right. So an alternative to American hegemony is maybe Eurasian unity, right, especially between Russia, China and Iran. So if these three nations are able to create a trade bloc with BRICS as a framework, then this cou... , a distributed gold-backed system that could become the basis of trade beyond the dollar. That is why the idea is existential for America. If people stop buying Treasuries, the $39 trillion debt cannot be financed. The empire collapses not first as battlefield defeat, but as a confidence failure.

That is where Greater North America enters. Jiang imagines a continental fortress Source trail 52:4754:00 So I've made the argument that Trump does have a plan. And basically, it's something called Greater North America, which is something that Peter Hegstaff has also talked about. Where America has control over Greenland,...So basically committing acts of piracy. There was, about a week ago, a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian oil depot, which basically took about 40 % of Russian oil exports offline. So you can make the argument that eve... : Greenland, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, oil, minerals, food, shipping routes, and North American safety behind two oceans. The plan would shift America from financial empire to resource empire Source trail 54:00 So basically committing acts of piracy. There was, about a week ago, a Ukrainian drone strike on a Russian oil depot, which basically took about 40 % of Russian oil exports offline. So you can make the argument that eve... . Destroy or destabilize the GCC and the Middle East, and Europe and East Asia are forced to buy energy, financing, and weapons through North America.

Dugin accepts the possibility that Trump is not only madness. He may also be a weapon used by a deeper state to preserve Western hegemony through naked power, oil access, and global war, then sacrificed when the work is done. Against that, Dugin offers multipolarity Source trail 1:02:22 are satisfied with our own zone of influence in Eurasia, and we are ready to accept the other poles, not only Chinese pole, Indian pole, Islamic pole, but we, we are ready to accept the great and fundamental Western pol... : Russia does not want to occupy Europe or Asia; it wants a world where Russian, Chinese, Indian, Islamic, and Western poles exist without Western supremacy.

The host asks if the deep state is simply Chabad Lubavitch. Jiang's answer is more useful than a single-name theory: convergence of interests Source trail 1:05:35 Right. Right. So I think rather than say there's one group of people pulling the strings, I think it's just better to say that there's a convergence of interests. Meaning that you have different political factions who n... . Military contractors, security agencies, secret societies, Wall Street, the City of London, Trump, Kushner, Witkoff, and Chabad do not need to be one command center. Different factions may all need the Iran war. The visible people become vanguard and scapegoat Source trail 1:05:351:06:48 Right. Right. So I think rather than say there's one group of people pulling the strings, I think it's just better to say that there's a convergence of interests. Meaning that you have different political factions who n...So you have the military -industrial complex, you have the national security apparatus, you have secret societies like the Freemasons, the Rosicrucians, Knights Templars, you have Wall Street and the state of London. Ba... while stronger actors work behind the scenes.

Dugin then separates Russia's treatment of religious communities from American anxieties. Lubavitch exists in Russia as one Jewish religious current. Islam is indigenous to Russia Source trail 1:12:401:13:44 So first of all, we need to make a kind of difference because the Muslim population we have in Russia, they were Muslim from old age. So they were members of our society, of our country, and they didn't come from outsid...They represent second religion in Russia, and we respect them very much. And that is, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For example, my Chechen friends, they fight for Russian interests in Ukraine. For exampl... , not merely immigrant. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other traditional religions are accepted as communities, while Putin is described as a practicing Orthodox Christian motivated by Russian interests Source trail 1:10:43 So Putin is motivated by interests of Russia. He is Christian Orthodox. That's very important. He is not just the head of the state with the majority of Orthodox Christians, but he himself is practicing Christian Orthod... .

The Middle East is where the two maps overlap. Dugin says Russia can read events through realist geopolitics and through the geography of prophecy at the same time. That makes Jiang's question sharper: if catechon is the force restraining Antichrist, why restrain it at all? Source trail 1:19:42 So I have quite a few questions. My first question is, I don't really fully understand the concept of the catacomb, right? Because the catacomb is the force that keeps the Antichrist at bay. But if the Antichrist system... Why not let Antichrist consume the world and get to salvation faster?

Dugin's answer is moral before it is strategic. The catechon delays Antichrist. A negative catechon might say: let evil rule briefly so Christ returns sooner. Dugin rejects that path. Never side with evil Source trail 1:23:08 So never side with the evil. Never. Including when the evil is necessary. Maybe, maybe for God's plans. But we have our mission here in the world and the history. Stay against antichrist until the last breath. So that i... , even if evil has a place in God's plan. Stay against Antichrist until the last breath. That is the Orthodox state mission as he understands it.

Epstein then becomes more than scandal. For Dugin, the files confirm what Orthodox elders said about the West: the veil is lifted, and modern Western civilization appears as Antichrist. But he refuses determinism. There is no predestination. The human soul is free. Americans can welcome Antichrist, or reject that role Source trail 1:28:121:29:341:31:10 So it always depends. So our Christian doctrine affirms that there is no predestination. There is the freedom. We profoundly believe in freedom of the human soul. So there is some predisposition of history. There are so...So if you resist, if you want justice, if you want to follow different, different route, different path, you always can change everything. So it is about you to accept the role of anti -Christ or reject and when Trump s... and become human again.

Jiang agrees overall that Western civilization is built on anti-human ideas Source trail 1:37:41 Um, um, I mean, I, I agree overall that, um, Western civilization is based on certain ideas that are anti -human. For example, um, the idea of individuality, um, the idea of rationality, um, the idea of, um, the idea of... : individuality, rationality, science, consumerism, utilitarianism. But his agreement is not the end of the argument. His difference is that these ideas are not merely repulsive. They are attractive, materially productive, and psychologically seductive Source trail 1:39:08 But I think that where Professor Duggan and I will have some differences is that for a lot of people, this system is extremely attractive, and they will fight to the death to maintain this system. So I feel that in Russ... .

This is Jiang's deepest disagreement with Dugin. Russia may feel urgency to fight Antichrist, but materialist societies such as China ask how to keep the system because it has brought happiness and prosperity. The West gives people the internet, wealth creation, space travel, comfort, and spectacle. The question is not only what is evil. The question is how many people will choose to resist Source trail 1:39:081:40:25 But I think that where Professor Duggan and I will have some differences is that for a lot of people, this system is extremely attractive, and they will fight to the death to maintain this system. So I feel that in Russ...And yeah. when the evil works well enough to be loved Source trail 1:39:08 But I think that where Professor Duggan and I will have some differences is that for a lot of people, this system is extremely attractive, and they will fight to the death to maintain this system. So I feel that in Russ... .

The host adds the media form of the same problem: not old censorship, but flooding Source trail 1:40:271:41:27 How many people choose to resist? So I think you do point out. Well, the underlying despair, not to make it doom and gloom, but many people are feeling exactly what you just described. I just did a podcast with Bradley...So now that you see a million people displaced in Lebanon, you see villages wiped out. So many people in America just don't have the energy to even care. They used to care about Epstein, and then he became a meme. Maybe... . Gaza, Lebanon, Epstein, jobs, debt, personal exhaustion, memes, and algorithmic noise all arrive at once until people have no energy left to care. Jiang's practical answer is not grandiose. Have the conversation. Refuse the name-calling frame. A transnational conversation is already resistance to the managed script Source trail 1:42:12 I think having these sort of debates and discussions is really key. So I really enjoyed hearing Professor Duggan's perspective. So thank you so much, Nico, for setting this up. And I'm really sympathetic towards his vie... .

Dugin closes by accepting that materialism tempts Russia and China too. Only a small minority consciously understands the catechonic mission. China's futuristic cities may be miraculous and poisonous at once Source trail 1:48:211:49:50 I think something like that makes sense. Maybe here I am not expert. Maybe something like that we could trace as well in Chinese society. Because accepting so many aspects of Western civilization, maybe China is somehow...It is amazing. That is something. It is a miracle. So I admire that. But I can see that maybe it will be moment to pay for that. So if you take too much poison, it will affect you sooner or later. But it is up to you to... : proud, prosperous, technologically perfect, and empty of children. The final moral returns to freedom. Americans, Chinese, Russians, Muslims: no one can be forced into the decision. The demon enters only when invited Source trail 1:50:34 That was my favorite point of yours today. Professor Dugan saying that it is up to you to allow the demon to enter. I think that is an important fact to remember. Thank you so much to the both of you for coming on. I gr... .