Dante #10: Purgatory Cantos 5-14

good day everyone and welcome back to the dante workshop today we have a very very special guest dialing in from connecticut our beloved throne professor of english david bromwich live with us today besides being the sterling professor of english he has been a very well -read literary and cultural critic he was a yale college grad and a phd alum of ours his one of his some of his many books include haslet the mind of a critic disowned by memory wordsworth poetry the intellectual career of edmund burke and most recently american breakdown the trump years he has also been a committee member for the committee on trust in higher education which just published this report about a month ago he still teaches english 125 at yale directed studies a course on moby dick and we're just so delighted to have you contribute to this enlightened conversation with your student uh and without further ado i'm gonna

turn the podium over to you i should also say we're so grateful that actually thanks to jang's introduction we've had um david bromwich professor bromwich joined yale center beijing programs and workshops on shakespeare and poetry during covid which was comfort during difficult times comfort and enlightenment equally so um i'll turn the mic over to professor bromwich and joe do you want me to just start

or um yeah just just feel free to start uh okay uh let me um set this up in a slightly classroom way and point out that shakespeare is um a an irregular an unwieldy a sort of uh untamed author in many ways and uh this is shown especially the way he was received by neoclassical French critics who held against him that he wrote plays that didn't obey the unities, the supposed all -important Aristotelian unities of action, time and place. The ideal play would have an action that took place in the amount of time it took you to watch the play. You can see how rare this is as a successful strategy. But Shakespeare was what went astray of it far more than most successful playwrights. And I chose Macbeth in part because this is a relatively rare instance among his works where you do have strong unity of action and it's welded together with character, a portrait of character that is really brought out by the nature of the action.

And the moral of the story is that judgment I think we're asked to make about the play, about Macbeth's ambition, goes with a sequence of actions that have that sort of interconnection that we look for. It is an imitation of an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude. I'll try to expand that a little or get your thinking started on it by just reminding you of the aphorism which we have from Heraclitus. Character is fate. The Greek of it is ethos, is the daimon, both of those key words still with us in English in different ways. And then a much later writer, but interesting in the same way of bringing our attention to this unity of character and sequence of events. Henry James in his essay on the art of fiction asks, what is character but the determination of incident?

Incident coming to a sharp emphasis in the form of character. And what is incident but the illustration of character? I'm going to concentrate on the idea of action, the idea of a deed. And Shakespeare's sense in dealing with Macbeth most of all, but also Lady Macbeth, who is in some sense the instigator of his violent action, the murder of Duncan. By calling attention to the strange focus Shakespeare pretty much demands that we give to doing, the very idea of doing. Lady Macbeth says, soon after they've committed their murder, what's done is done. But she'll say much later, on the brink of or some way into her madness, what's done cannot be undone. Now, you can hear the difference between those two assertions. And of course, those are often used idiomatically by ordinary speakers in English today. But they logically mean exactly the same thing. What's done is done, and what's done cannot be undone.

No contradiction there. But they're said in a very different tenor. The person who says what's done is done, or to use the more modern formulation, which is even more seemingly bland, it is what it is. When somebody says that to you, they mean, there's no point thinking further. about it. It's in the past now. No more reason to contemplate, to have regrets, whatever. But that second statement, what's done cannot be undone, points to something fatal about the nature of a deed, that it is a bearer of fate, and it is a bearer of the fate of the person who has performed the deed that does a great deal to illustrate the character of the agent himself. Macbeth seems to be nursing the nature of the deed he will perform almost as soon as the witches plant the idea that he might become Thane and then become king in his mind. He speaks it

in a way that's a little elaborate, and at the same time rushed, as if his mind is overcome by the fact that he has performed the deed that does a great deal to illustrate the character of as if his mind is overcome by the merging of the idea of usurpation, killing, and this prophecy, which places him already as king. He says, and these are the lines from the first act, my thought, whose murder yet is but fantastical, shakes so my single state of man that function is smothered in surmise, and nothing is but what is not. One thing clear, even though that's an incoherent statement, and I mean, think of what it means to say, my thought whose murder yet is but fantastical. It's as if murder surrounds his very thought. That's a kind of conceit, I think, that Jang will probably want to have something to say about in relation to Dante. The idea

that one of those condemned speaking from a flame in the window just is what the deed bounds him as having been. And but Beth's living that already in his speech, even though he hasn't yet, to his conscious mind, decided to do what the witch's prophecy might be possible. They don't say you're going to murder Duncan. They say you're going to be king. But this, this concern, this verbal, and psychological freight of the idea of a deed as defining the character and fate of a person is strongest when he's just on the verge of committing the murder at the very end of act one. It's a great speech, and I'll speak all of it and apologize in advance for the inadequacy. Very hard to act this part. It almost exists, to be read more than acted. The part of Macbeth, partly because he is imaginative, because he is full of fantasy in a way that a mere warrior wouldn't normally be relied on to show.

He has both aspects in him. But the fact that he is haunted, the fact that he has a certain depth does not change the fact that he's bent on the deed that the witch's have told him or all but told him could make his assent to kingship possible. So here's the speech at the end of the first act. If it were done when it is done, then, for well, then it's done quickly. If the assassination could trample up the consequence and catch withrukt with his surcease success. sass that but this blow might be the be all and the end all here but here upon this bank and shoal of time we jump the life to come but in these cases we still have judgment here that we but teach bloody instructions which being taught return to plague the inventor this even -handed justice commends the ingredients

of our poison chalice to our own lips he's here in double trust that's Duncan first design his kinsmen and his subject strong both against the deed then as his host who should against his murderer shut the door not bear the knife myself besides this Duncan hath borne his faculties so meek hath been so clear in his great office that his virtues will plead like angels trumpet -tongued against the deep damnation of his taking off and pity like a naked newborn babe striding the blast or heaven's cherubim horsed upon the sightless couriers of the air shall blow the horrid deed in every eye that tears shall drown the wind I have no spur to prick the sides of my intent but only vaulting ambition which or leaps itself and falls on the other it's quite a remarkable speech and I'll stop at a couple points of it but only say now that Lady Macbeth comes in

tries to work him up to the crime again but Macbeth in a very different vein from what we've just heard says to her flatly we will proceed no further in this business there he speaks like a general giving a command that is in keeping with his or normal duties but you can see the amount of fantasy and the and the sense of ambition um just in the way the metaphors work uh in this speech he says that he'd leap the life to come in fact in the first part of that speech if you could travel up the consequence and catch with his surcease success it's almost as if the echo of those two words surcease is a word it's a it's a euphemism for murder but if if success and surcease the way they almost rhyme is just the way i could take him out how convenient it would be that but this blow might

be the be all and the end all here right now in this place no consequences but then he comes to the idea of judgment in these cases and cases is already a legal term our idea of casuistry which is metaphysical and theological too comes from thinking about cases in these cases we still have judgment here on earth right that we but teach bloody instructions which being taught return to plague the inventor and this even -handed justice commends the ingredients of our poison chalice to our own lives so macbeth in those words enacts justice upon himself there could be no more direct or complete judgment of the wrong of what he's doing his sense of the wrong is expressed only in terms of duty but the duty is strong and binding and he practically breaks down himself in that strong metaphor about the newborn babe pity striding the wind and confesses that he has only vaulting

ambition which or leaps itself and falls on the other so the fantasy is in this bank and shoal of time like crossing a river but when you leap you just fall you don't you don't get to the point you would like to arrive at so that's macbeth trying to make the depth of the crime just a local event it stops now but here but by this blow anything because all the steps heeffel that he has had without even tripping will do serve i know that might be the be all and the end all i think that might be the first use of that interesting phrase in English you can just be over with it's just over with and that's what people going to commit some terrible thing i believe often say to themselves as a sort of consolation it's true to life in that regard um lady macbeth of course all this while uh has

been setting herself up as the person willing to face um violation of nature violation of duty because of the great um gift that it will bring them the gift of power the gift of being king and queen and she has said when just when beth is about to arrive uh following the message that she has read already from him that he got this strange hint from the from the witches she said i'm no longer part of nature come you spirits that tend on mortal thoughts unsex me here and fill me from the crown to the toe top full of dire cruelty make thick my blood stop up the nature can't be undone but uh when she says unsex me here and in other places where she says you know i would beat out the brains of an infant rather than quit this deed before it's done there's a very strange suggestion that you know lady

macbeth sees herself as witch -like sees herself as in some way supernatural outside nature she can't live up to that aspiration but it's she who as it were um starts the engine of macbeth's ambition to turn it into something efficient which he is hanging back from quite committing himself to too. What's interesting about their relationship is the progression of it, the kind of exchange it undergoes as the play advances. Because already in act three, that's the dinner scene where Macbeth is quite haunted and is acting so much so that guests wonder what's up. They begin to be suspicious about something strange going on in this family. But already in that scene, Macbeth is comforting Lady Macbeth, no longer having to be roused by her, as he eventually is to commit the murder. And when she tells him to put on a good face, gentle your looks, he says to her, full of scorpions is my mind, dear wife, but he's not going to tell you what to do.

Tell her exactly what's up. Be innocent of the knowledge, dearest Chuck, till thou applaud the deed. One of the, I can only call it Shakespearean touches all through this play, is what a good team they are, how well suited as husband and wife. I won't say loving, that almost seems a larceny against the word love, but they're very compatible. Let's just say they like each other a lot, and they're suited to each other. And they care about each other in a way that they're not capable of caring about anyone else. Macbeth continues the self -deception that a deed committed right here, right now, can stop right here, right now. He knows that this is a deception. He says as much when he speaks the line, to know my deed, twere best not know myself. As if you could separate your personal agency from the things you do.

That's the fantasy nursed by Macbeth. And I want to suggest it's also a fantasy common to all ambition. Ambition in that sense, in that hard sense, is something as if outside you, that takes you over. And that's the fantasy. And that's the fantasy. And that's the fantasy that makes the person no longer inwardly able to care about right and wrong. No longer part of nature, to use the word that Lady Macbeth has used. That idea of being here, where there is the be all and the end all, the fantasy of jumping the life to come, persists throughout the play. And I want to point out that in one of the speeches of Shakespeare that people most like to memorize every bit as much as Hamlet's to be or not to be. We're not getting a piece of, you know, more than ordinary human wisdom, but a typical evasion by Macbeth when he speaks the speech I'll now remind you of, because you all know it.

She should have died hereafter. There would have been a time when she would have died. She should have died hereafter. There would have been a time when she would have died. She should have died hereafter. There would have been a time for such a word. Notice those words here and there. here and there. Trying to locate the deed in one place rather than have it stretched out to cover the whole meaning of your life, and that's when he goes on tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time and all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle, life's but a walking time. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle, life's but a

walking�� shadow a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more it is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing and again i'll just say because it's bewildering and more so the more you know the play this has been taken as a indication of profound wisdom about life as if shakespeare is speaking everything he knows about good and evil love and death through macbeth but it is no such thing this is macbeth's um locating uh of lady macbeth's death in a hereafter where she should have died and then his uh revelation that to himself now life has become a tedium it's just one thing and another and another and another we're all just actors on stage and that word shadow is an elizabethan synonym for actor among other things but let's call this speech nihilistic but the nihilism belongs to macbeth

and it's an exposure of the cost of ambition it is not shakespeare's information about the nature of life um i think i'll stop there i haven't said anything. had other things to say and a couple of other wonderful speeches that I would have recited. But let me just pose two possible topics for us to come back to in discussion. One topic is the witches. What do you make of them? Because, you know, they seem to know everything in advance. So is a human agent even responsible in that case? And the second is children. Lady Macbeth says that she's given suck. So she's had a child. But the Macbeths don't have children. And there is a curious moment in a scene of Act Four where the bad news of Macduff's whole family being slaughtered comes to light. And he's told by Malcolm, the heir to the throne, you know, don't cover your face. Just take it like a man, in effect.

And Macduff's answer is very interesting answer. He has no children. So what is this about the idea of children as something deeply related to what's not present in Macbeth and Lady Macbeth? The dynamic, to call it that, between nature, the nature that Lady Macbeth hopes to separate herself from, and the supernatural, the supernatural element in this Scottish play. So I'll stop there.

Thank you, David. Professor Bromwich, that was wonderful. So in this class, we tend to be imaginative. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to paint a scene where Dante is at the premiere of Macbeth, and Shakespeare comes out at the end, and everyone gives him a standing ovation. And then afterwards, Shakespeare and Dante have dinner alone together. And of course, Dante only has effusive praise for Shakespeare, the language, the poetry. But during the dinner, he raises three concerns that he'll have about the play Macbeth. His first concern, the first question he'll ask Shakespeare is, are you fundamentally pessimistic? Because Dante, as we learn in this class, he is a fundamentally optimistic person who believes in free will, who believes in salvation, who believes that we are ultimately the masters of our own destiny. And as you point out, Shakespeare does come from the Greek tradition. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the example of course is the Oedipus Rex tragedy, where Oedipus, regardless of his character, regardless of what, what he does, he's bounded by fate. Um, so, that's Dante's first concern. Um, is Shakespeare fundamentally a pessimistic person? Do humans have absolutely no agency and free will in this world? That's the first question. Second question is, Would Shakespeare, does Shakespeare believe in God? Is he a Christian, in other words? Because as you point out, Macbeth, there's conception of nature, but it's, as you point out, pretty nihilistic. And it seems the witch is of all the power. Now, in this class, what we did discuss is Darnay has particular hatred towards fortune tellers. He has a place in hell for them, and he thinks that they are the cause of all misery in the world. And it's because they reduce people's capacity to make choices.

Because if you think about it, if Tiresias, the fortune tellers, didn't provide these fortunes, then Oedipus would not have had the tragedy that he had. He was forced to act in the way that he did. Because of these fortunes. So, is it just the gods manipulating us? That's the second question he would have. The third question he would ask is this. How does Shakespeare feel about women in society? Because the Greeks, there are a lot of extremely evil women in their tragedies that drive a lot of action. But if we read the Divine Comedy, and we did. The Divine Comedy, Daunte is very pro -woman. In fact, in heaven, it is Mary who's queen of heaven. It is Mary who redeems humanity, not Jesus. Okay. So these are the three concerns that Daunte would have about this play. Right? The first, to summarize, is Shakespeare pessimistic about human nature? Second question is, does Shakespeare believe in God?

The third question is. How does Shakespeare feel about woman?

Well, Lady Macbeth is a thoroughgoing female villain, and yet she is quite humanized by the end. She not only says what's done cannot be undone, but she says, you know, not, what are those lines? Not all the perfume in Arabia will sweeten. This, my, this little hand, I mean, that, that's the, the, the fantastical imagining of the harm to nature that their deed has done is actually common to Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, but she, she thinks she can elude it at the time she is urging him to commit the deed. And when Macbeth is hesitant later, he is more determined and he, the last decisive action. He goes into his duel against Macduff is to put on his armor. I mean, that's, that's to forget even the grief that he expresses over, over his death. She is showing her consciousness of being part of her deed when she tries to wash that in her sleepwalking, she's trying to wash her hands of the blood.

So they both. They, they share that awareness and they share. share the repression of that awareness the not wanting to acknowledge the thought that shakespeare lets us see nevertheless is in them um macbeth's version of you know not all the perfumes are rabiable sweet in this little hand is even more famous um you know can uh neptune's all the water and great neptune's ocean wash clean uh uh this hand of blood no rather will my hand the multitudinous seas incarnadine making the green one red i mean it's extraordinary speech and i mean macbeth is is rather um they're both rhetorically powerful to each other not uh not least especially she for her influence on him but they do have um consciousness of what they've done and it doesn't ever rise to the point of conscience that would stop them from doing it so i i i

see lady macbeth as a a bad person who's becoming something worse than that but she begins only as a rather conventional person who hasn't yet had her chance um she's no great indication of shakespeare's attitude towards women in general uh you can look at the character of cordelia in king lear of desdemona in othello and a good many women in the comedies if you want an idea of just how um naturalistic uh a feminist shakespeare was capable of being i'm going backwards uh in your three questions but about fortune and that brings us to the role of the witches i think shakespeare there too um is being naturalistic by his lights that is to say observing what people in society are like and this is a this is a scottish society there there uh uh is a prevalent belief that witches uh exist and operate in the world in scotland uh even at the time

shakespeare wrote the witch burnings are are um into the 17th century so uh you know the the belief that witches operate is is real um what credit does shakespeare give to it i think he treats it as something people believe and macbeth most of all not all people believe it in the same way he is listening to the predictions that they make in company with banquo and um banquo says something like uh look how our partners wrapped macbeth is so struck by what they're saying and is you can use the other meaning of the word sorry the other spelling it's a different word of it's he's wrapped up in it um he can't tear himself away from what they are but you know that's that's the thing about here um but i think that people are brought to mind this this um murderous thought that smothers function and surmise so macbeth is a believer he

was uh you know apt prey for the witches um but you know treat uh treat the witches in that regard as something like um a statistical prediction of you know what the likelihood is of me uh living another 10 years i get this from statistics the doctors you know from reputable medical journals tell me that i my genes are such that it doesn't much matter what i do i have a very good chance to live 10 years on so i go on a rampage of all sorts of dangerous things because i think you know the doctors have predicted that that's the way it's going to be for me i think i think i know a lot of the research on what other can do to get me up and about uh but one of superstition but it's just obedience to ideas about the future has been common in human nature forever and shakespeare's using it

um i also just from b from having visited wales in certain parts of scotland where the mists are um on a twilight time to what i said um in response or rather in in interpreting that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow speech uh shakespeare is acquainted with nihilism uh and with the machiavellian version of nihilism in the character of edmund for example in king lear but i think he sees it just as one one of the human occurrences these people exist therefore he is going to portray them unlike dante as far as i know dante and my my knowledge of it is nowhere near as good as this what this class probably has by now um shakespeare is not going to comment on the things he sees in human nature in human nature and society he shows you good and he shows you evil he he usually uh makes it possible for you to see how

good could triumph over evil but the judgments come from the characters not from the author and maybe that difference is also partly owing to the difference between dramatic form and the kind of epic poem that that dante's writing just the last point it's just a point of information shakespeare didn't know the greek tragedy tragedians and he probably didn't know aristotle though he would have had

great readers about aristotle so right um so again um daunting shakespeare having dinner and now that shakespeare has responded um donny hears all this and he only feel a sense of horror at these ideas that are being articulated and he has to ask this question does shakespeare do shakespeare do you believe that he has a work of artistry i think that's what i have to ask him you believe in God and if so what is God well this play has been called by many commentators you know

um Orthodox Christian of its time uh in the beliefs that it reflects that is to say when you when you um you know when you rend nature when you um uh do something that tears the fabric of nature and pulls yourself away from it uh that is an offense against God and nature maybe um from the Dante point of view too weak a word for what you're doing but you know again I I'm I'm going to come back maybe very inadequately or unsatisfactorily with my secular view of Shakespeare which is that he takes seriously the things that people take seriously and belief in God is inevitable what the theology is behind it exactly um you know depends on the occasion of the play he's going to um write at a given moment uh if you look at King Lear I think there the pressure is is greatest on any belief in something beyond the human

realm that could save human life um in Macbeth I think the idea of a restoration of of an order of things which God supervenes in is stronger by the end uh it's strong because of um the nature that Macduff feels is in him and what Macduff's family must be to him I mean we're made to feel the absence of children in Macbeth and Lady Macbeth only by the planting of Macduff as a counter character and that strange moment when he is told of the death of his whole family so it's a terrible play it's a frightening play it does not give you any image clear image of the good but I think it it makes you able to think about why it is that someone like Macbeth doesn't survive okay

so I'm going to ask one more question and then we'll open it to To show students but on Avian comedy there are lots of prayers be like Dante is making a prayer uh Anna flair location by himself, or maybe someone else in the divine comedy is making a prayer. And for Donnie, that's very important. Because when you make a prayer to God, you are also speaking widely to the universe. So in Shakespeare, and always like 37, 39 plays, does anyone make a prayer? That's the first question. The second question is, if not, if the soliloquy is just, you're just talking to yourself, what exactly is the point of that?

Well, there is a there is a prayer I can think of right off and I'll just use it as an illustration. And that is Claudius, the uncle of Hamlet, who has murdered Hamlet's father. Is is overheard by the audience, not by Hamlet, praying for confessing his sin. That's the only moment in the play where we know for sure that the ghost was right. In what he said about the meat, the matter of his death. He prays for forgiveness, I suppose. And he confesses to that his prayers aren't going up to heaven, but sinking down to earth and then sinking down to hell. So there's a prayer. It's, it's just used in the play. It's a prayer of forgiveness for by a bad man, which is not granted. It's the kind of little moment you do get in the inferno, I think, but it's made a passing moment in the play. It bears on ambition to ambition knows what it is, even though it's something that blocks self knowledge.

And a curious fact about that speech. When Abraham Lincoln, who knew Shakespeare pretty well, wrote a letter to the author of a book on Shakespeare and says some interesting things about several of the plays. Macbeth was his favorite, by the way. And Lincoln knew that he Lincoln was ambitious, confessed it in an interesting notebook entry to himself, and in other places less openly. I thought ambition was dangerous, but that his ambition is probably what allowed him to become president, and to lead the campaign against slavery. It had to be somebody who had a great idea of his own abilities. Sorry. But one of his favorite speech, the word Donnie would have for this is not ambition, but hope.

All I was gonna say is, Lincoln says that that that's, that's his favorite speech in Shakespeare. That speech by Claudius. And it's just a passing thing. But it's a confession of just how damned he feels by what his ambition led him to do. So make of that what you will. But there's a prayer in Shakespeare.

Okay, thank you. Okay, so we're gonna open the floor to questions. Are there any questions for Professor Roberts? Yes.

Is there a specific moment in Shakespeare's life that you think unlocked his imagination? And could you tell us a little bit about that? Could have shaped his view of the world?

No, but I tend, I tend to be skeptical of such singular moments. I know that that Dante is an exception to that. And that other artists are too. And some of them say so. But Shakespeare gradually became the greatest playwright in English. I don't think from his very first plays, you could say that he pulled away from the very you know, impressive crowd of competitors that he was surrounded by, including Marlowe, including Ford at a later stage and so on. So no, I think it was his knowledge of people, his knowledge of the court at a tangent, his knowledge of some aristocrats, his knowledge of people who had fought in battles, his knowledge of people in the theater, who themselves are a diverse lot. They're not isolated, not living in what we now call a bubble. So he was he was worldly, mostly with regard to London and the work he did, you know, as somebody who helped to run a theater outfit.

Sorry, so to expand the question, in this class, we speculate on weird things, right? So we discuss, is it possible that Don had access to psychedelics? Is it possible he had visions? Was he an avid dreamer? Did he have a near -death experience? And so is there any scholarship on Shakespeare and how he was able to achieve his visions?

Well, there's lots. And there's this new movie called, what is it, Hamnet? I mean, about the, you know, the unhappy pregnancy of his wife and how much that mattered to him and how much that mattered to her. There are lots of stories like this. I think Shakespeare is an unusually hard case for making much of his life. That's actually, that's actually one of the things that I think bewilder people about him. He doesn't seem exceptional. There's that same quality about Mozart, but at least Mozart has one exceptional thing. He seems able to compose great pieces at the age of six or seven. That you can't say about Shakespeare. But, you know, there's not a story of the germinal incident or the terrible, near -death experience or trauma that I think lies behind, you know, all the interesting productions that we have the highest respect for. I was saying earlier, before we started this officially, that I'm teaching a course on Melville next term.

And I think you can say about Herman Melville that his years at sea were the thing that mattered to him much more than his much longer period on land. That's clear. But, you know, can you trace to one point what made him write Moby Dick? I'm not able to do that.

Okay, great. Question back there.

If Dante was directing Macbeth in the scene where Macbeth does the speech, is this a dagger that I see before me? Do you think Dante would instruct the stage production to have a dagger appear on the stage or continue to leave it in the imagination of the audience?

Ah, Dante might let you have, I mean, Dante is serious Catholic. Catholic are not against idolatry from objects. I think he might well have put the knife right there. And I think it's common but not universal to have the knife be only imagined by Macbeth. That's another interesting moment of acting as if he is led on by forces outside himself, as ambition does for you because he says to the he says to the dagger thou marshall's the way that I was going which confesses that he was going to do it anyway but the hallucination helps him and you know he embarks on the deed right after that with the words I go and it is done so you know it's a it's a stage prop it's and it's a favorite performance piece isolated from everything else in the 19th century but yeah thank you for bringing that up I mean that is that's that's one

more instance of the consistency of this portrayal that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are always putting off onto something slightly external the impulses that drives the ambition that is in

themselves okay thank you for that yes yeah so I'm interested in your your perception of the witches so witches we could say they're humans but you know um we have demons in the Divine Comedy so what's do are the witches possessed by demons or what's like the how do we define the witches like why

why are they doing what they are doing so I'll first point out the naturalistic almost dismissal of the witches that we get from Banquo uh in lines that run something like um the earth has bubbles as the water has these are of them so they're you know almost as if he's a professor of physics there is Banquo the the ordinary um you know um not over ambitious uh Warrior alongside Macbeth just saying this is all very strange but maybe it doesn't mean much of anything and that's that's a fascinating proposition isn't it um William James uh great American philosopher who was uh interested in psychic phenomena and was the head of the Society in Britain that studied that at one point after years and years of studying it said he came to believe that there were ghosts that there was another world that it that it it actually existed but the disappointment from his many

years of conversing with the things on the other side was they didn't have very interesting things to say they they were like gossiping about the housekeeper in the basement and ordinary dreary stuff like that so there's similar to William James in this case there is Banquo saying the earth has bubbles as the water has perhaps these are of them um Macbeth brings something of himself into the way that he is haunted and it's a portrait of him that the that the um that the nature of that haunting gives us more than anything sure about the witches but as I say my my own um I think true doctrine on the witches is people believed in them and uh believed in them and and it was right to put them there because if you believe in something you will probably experience it you will even experience your own self -righteousness if you

believe in it strongly enough great question okay any more questions uh yes I wonder is

Shakespeare um naturalistic in his nature or is he just adapting a naturalism view when he's writing his play for example does the sonnets reflect more about what he really believed

in his playstuffs the sonnets are very uh they're written a good deal before they're written around the same a little bit about the same time as Romeo and Juliet a little after towards the time he's writing um Hamlet Macbeth comes a few years later uh and in a way is much plainer in style than the sonnets as sonnets are of course an ornate form compared to what Shakespeare does with drama um I'll tell you some things about Shakespeare uh and this this takes us back to my dodging the biographical uh premise but I'll say this much he was he was interested in the lives the lives the the posture um the different uh quality of experience that he found among aristocrats and the aristocrat Southampton that he is dealing with in some of the sonnets um a deep impression on him and at the same time uh he was wary of how much these people

had at stake about the the deception and self -deception that it could put them onto um and to to a great degree about their ability to manipulate others just through the status and sometimes stature that they held so I mean the sonnets tell you something about his um his attitude toward a lot of aristocrats which is which is careful uh and admiring and wary um it also tells you something about Shakespeare's um what to say uh erotic intensity he was capable of very strong feelings towards a woman uh including um deep physical and other kinds of attachment um and also including suspicion jealousy um so you know the the sonnets are a personal statement to some extent and yet they're written from within uh you know a genre post petrarch that is a that is already setting the terms of

much of what Shakespeare says um any more questions uh yes would you view Dante's creation of a universal architecture kind of an articulation of capital T truth you view it more as a longing for moral certainty and how would you compare you're asking yeah you're asking how i see dante yeah dante the author dante the poet and then how would you compare shakester

in that dante dante i've just been reading the chapter on the structure of the uh divine comedy to prepare for questions i thought i might get from jang um uh you know eric auerbach's book dante and uh uh the world and i think dante gives form to the world and form to um uh moral and um you know uh uh what to say any any thought about nature you might have being shaped by larger surrounding um uh circumscribing understandings that are religious that are essentially religious um and what he's what he's doing in the divine comedy seems completely different from the sort of things shakespeare's doing in his plays i i don't see any unity that you can add up from the three dozen odd plays that shakespeare wrote but in the case of the divine comedy the unity is obviously obviously there and a single -minded vision is there so are they just up

to different things um t.s elliott said you know dante and shakespeare divide the world between them there is no third um we we had a question uh back here yeah so

can you expand a bit on shakespeare's perception of fate sorry did you catch a question yeah i did

expand a little on shakespeare's conception of of fate um i think he i i may be confusing his views but i think that there is a there is a a moral order in the world and that's the um the the desire for it in the world um i think that he is a very a very good friend of mine uh so please allow for that i feel that i've learned a lot from shakespeare and uh i can't be sure where some thoughts come from but i i think he believed that there is an there there is an a moral order in the world um this comes out in king lear which is the most despairing of his place in some ways and yet But what you see in it is that evil is not one undifferentiated thing. There are people who are made worse by the other people around them or by incidents that happen in their lives.

And the, what to say, assurance or clarity that Shakespeare seems to have from outside this all is that, I'm going to use a very kind of slang expression for it, what goes around comes around. That there is order in that sense. That the people who do wrong. In some sense, know exactly what they are doing and that others know. And that the fact that this can be known and shown gives order to the world in itself. So let me put it a simpler way. He believes, he believes in the redemptive. Sorry, that's too strong. He believes in the strengthening power of truth. And that. Truth comes out because to all human actions, there are human witnesses and people want to know they want to know truly and people are interested in the good and prone to despair when they find nothing but the absence of the good over here.

It's kind of combining Professor John's question about Shakespeare's view on women is something that's also very perplexing to me about Shakespeare. That half of his female characters are either bad like witches or Lady Macbeth. And then the other side, you find Portia in The Merchant of Venice, the, you know, very wise lawyer and then also Ophelia, who's Ophelia, who drown herself in despair, who's loving and all that. And then there's Taming of the Shrew where with Catriona, I think Cat and I, I can't reconcile. Yeah, how are we supposed to look at Taming of the Shrew? It's like the biggest issue in my life. I was like, I can't accept.

Really? Oh, yeah. Don't let it be. It's not, it's not such a, it's not such a great play. It's not, it's not, it's not full of wisdom. It's, it's done to a, done to a theme. You know, details of it show Shakespeare's greatness. But I don't think, I don't think the plot or the characters make you think in the way that his truly great work is. greatest plays do but you're mentioning all these women what about what about Rosalind as you like it yeah yeah she's completely commanding what about what about Cleopatra and Anthony Cleopatra she's the most interesting character in the play and I think you could say not only does Anthony die in worship of her but Shakespeare kind of worships her too um so I mean there's great variety in in his portrayals of women and you're right there you know there there are those bad ones but they're they're they're part

of the story um okay so we're running out of time okay

so um um it's 10 o 'clock and it's very late where Professor Bromwich is so um Professor Bromwich before we conclude do you have any questions for us as as a group maybe a question for the students um or I would like to know and I say this as someone

um just let's say barely conversant with Dante um and having been reading it uh more than I uh have done lately in the last few days just to prepare for this uh encounter with you so let me ask you what is what kind of satisfaction do you have from reading Dante that seems quite special and absent for example in a less overtly

religious um writer like Shakespeare wow okay so guys that's a question for you guys what is unique about Dante anyone okay back there oh yeah I think Dante's works is really making me

feel impressive because before the Dante's I just feel confused about money about power about AI about technology and all of these things I think this come from human mind but after Dante's I know that all of things maybe just the same just kind of original thing and even though you can say that AI is chronic kind of technology but it doesn't mean that it really do not let people to be controlled right so even the money which we think is quite needed but it also we have to admit and money surely can let people to be like slave you know to be enslaved people was mine so maybe Dante is really make people recall about what what we've been through about history what is history and keep telling us about truth okay thank you um

yes I just find it quite reassuring I don't think Shakespeare would ever let any of his Kings or Queens end up in purgatory languishing in the sweet -scented Valley and it's a nice thought that Dante allows even people who have great power a little bit of leeway as long as they have a good heart but I've never read it in Shakespeare okay uh yes I think I'm sorry I

think maybe it provides a moral framework to work off of especially if you're a religious um in the first case uh and also whether you agree with for example how he puts some people in hell and some people in purgatory and some people in Paradise that maybe you don't agree with it's still I think a good more of very reassuring moral framework and you can really start working off of that to get your own moral framework and it's just really reassuring to you know feel also I guess you said that Shakespeare also has a similar thought of fate is that bad people that do bad things have a bad ending and good people that do good things have a good ending and I think that's a reassuring moral framework to have even if you're not religious thank you uh yes I feel

like the difference is that Dante is more certain in his judgments like he is trying to like he his works have a lot of are very certain and he gives people as the calm was saying this reassuring moral certainty certainty but as you said I feel like Shakespeare he more or less just observes people and then tries to show them for like how humans act so in that way he is giving his readers less uh certainty

yes there's less certainty for sure yeah I have read Shakespeare for AP language and if you literature I memorized most of the quotes that you mentioned as a you know high school and I loved it I feel like he is the ultimate synthesis of a lot of the theology that I've encountered because I also went to Bible school and every day we have to you know reconcile paradoxes and stuff and I feel like Dante is one of those that kind of answers a lot of my questions that Shakespeare may not I feel Shakespeare is like this is the world let me present it on the stage for you for you to see what life is but Dante is like well this is Earth but there's more beyond Earth there's Heaven and Hell and like you know all these things that you need to be aware of and why there should be retribution for the wrongs

so I feel like yeah Shakespeare is more like a matter of fact of what it is and Dante is more like this is the interpretation or the you know outside of the cave vision yeah okay

any more um any more yes I actually think you need both because um in reading of course uh to me uh yeah what everybody whatever really has been saying is true but um what I've been I'm not a Shakespeare scholar I haven't studied Shakespeare in detail before but I think that observational uh naturalistic uh approach that Shakespeare has actually might complement um whatever that we've been learning so far in Dante and in the Dantean framework because if you're able to put yourself in the shoes uh of of a another person and evaluate this this this uh moral framework you might be able to find answers that are more pertinent to like modernity

what we're facing now thank you how about you Carol well I would just say that this conversation across time and space and Generations and years have been enormously enlightening um in this workshop we've been talking about the channeling of um the author's mind and world and architecture um implanting it into ourselves as we become a reader and a deep reader and um you know at our age it's not something that we do that often usually in the in the mundane um vicissitudes of life so I think um and and you also see that in the audience we have people from um different walks of life um different places and all of that and it's been enormously enriching um you know not dissimilar from what would be like on the Yale campus um in in a seminar or class with you and so I mean actually I want to follow up with an invitation for you

to come over in person perhaps next summer um and and bring us through some deep readings as well um I think we would really welcome that I would love to

um and I hope it's possible um if I can only make but this will be my one comment on Shakespeare and Dante together um that if you think about think about ambition think about ambition as a as and not not ambition as an unnecessary desire to perform something but ambition is a vice as a vice that takes someone over um Shakespeare gives you a story a whole story and the story is deepened by the way characters rub up against each other the friction of characters that's a difference between drama and an epic poem that don't dante can give you ambition and there'll be background incidents very shorthand about why these characters are guilty of it and what their punishment is in hell but it's they're just very different ways of coming at it and their the rewards are accordingly i think different and both very great and we definitely hope to see you in

beijing um and maybe we can have a seminar on shakespeare and dante together and uh we can have a conversation between the poles of the two two of the whole world right

uh that that sounds uh like a greatly tempting offer um thank you for the whole from uh for the whole class and the engagement that i i just saw and um you know i was i was going to say thank you to the audience for the great work that you've done and thank you to the audience for the great work that you've done and thank you to the audience for the great work that you've done

glad to stay up late for this thank you thank you so much okay well that was professor bramwich and um again he was my mentor at yale i took three seminars with him um and as you can see we are very very different uh but a lot of it is because um when i was at yale i tried very hard to emulate him i learned a lot about teaching from him he was basically my not No, no, no, no, no, he was not my original, no, no, no. That's a trap, that's a trap question. No, but it shows you what the learning process is. You first wanna emulate, and then once you emulate, you can then become your own person, okay? So that's what I'm trying to do in this class. So it seems as though I'm trying to force ideas on your throat, but it's really just to help you provide a framework for you to understand Dante so that you can develop your own interpretation, okay?

So, but as you can see, even though he was my mentor at Yale, and we're still very good friends, he and I see the world very differently, and I think that's a very positive thing. Okay, so any questions or comments or concerns from last class that you wanna address before we continue with Purgatory? Anyone?

Yes? Yeah, so yesterday we concluded Hell, right? Was it the day before? No, I think the day before, but I thought like because we discussed, you know, or said that this is Virgil's conception of Hell and not really Dante's, then what would Dante's conception look like, and how far would he then agree with Virgil's conception?

Yeah, that's a really great question, and it's something that I thought a lot about yesterday as well, because we went a bit extreme yesterday, and maybe we said a lot of things that were actually not appropriate. For example, we speculated as to if Virgil was in fact Lucifer, if in fact he was master of Hell, and why that's the case. We also said, well, maybe what happened was that Virgil was the one who was being tortured by Lucifer, and he made a deal with Beatrice, and then he got out of it, okay? That's a bit extreme, and it's great to imagine, but it's also important to reflect and see how true our imaginings are, and in that instance where Beatrice makes the deal with Virgil, that would never happen in Dante's conception of the universe. Why not? Do you guys know why not?

And it's really important, yes? Because it doesn't really make sense because your punishment would change, and so it breaks the whole thing about Inferno where you're supposed to be punished for a certain action act yes and so like why would you move and that's right that's right uh yes and it's almost like

beatrice has the right to kind of do packs almost like she's gone yeah yeah but this is really

important okay in dante's world god is not transactional maybe in our world maybe in the catholic church but god himself is not transactional he would never make a deal that's what the devil does okay all right so you are judged for what you do and what you believe not because you have an idea an offer you can make to to god okay so that's so so it's really important we clarify this beatrice would not have the power to make a deal with virgil and quite honestly um um it wouldn't happen it would have happened okay so this this then leads to question like what then is going on and um i think what dante wants to say is that everything in the universe is a co -creation process okay this is very important because um i think in shakespeare's uh conception what would happen is like god creates the universe he's like a master and

then we just live in it whereas for dante no it's we all participate in the co -operation process so hell is there are some aspects of god in it but there are also aspects of our imagination in it and um poets because they have the most vibrant imagination they can have the most impact in the co -creation process okay so it's not as simple as saying like who created hell is it was it virgil was it god i would say that first of all it's a co -creation process but what's what's much more um um challenging to understand is that it's a evolving process right so hell itself evolves where jesus is going to come and take out people from limbo and then there'll be a like a sundering of hell so it changes the physical landscape right and then virgil can walk around it and interact with people and change the dynamic of hell

all right so that's something that's really important for us to appreciate about uh dante um maybe for shakespeare things are much more static but for dante things are much more dynamic okay it's a co -creation process that is constantly evolving so um with each reading of inferno inferno itself changes if that makes sense okay when you read inferno the way you perceive inferno changes and your perception of inferno changes inferno itself

uh yes i remember yesterday when we read about when someone does a really bad sin their soul is immediately taken down that's right um it i just want to work out a bit of a problem i have where in macbeth the fact that towards the end of the play lady macbeth and mabeth go kind of crazy and there's like a flicker of conscience in them how do i reconcile that because their soul would have already been taken in dante's conception so is that shakespeare saying that even if your soul is taken your body could emulate conscience in a way even though you're irredeemable okay uh that's a really interesting question that's a really interesting question that's a really interesting

question and this is how i i would reconcile this okay i would say that what's really important to understand is that your soul exists in infinite dimensions so your soul exists at in hell purgatory and having the same time and depending on your action your soul emphasizes different parts differently okay so um it's not as clear as okay you do one bad thing then in an instant your source transport to hell when you hell soul theme and you know in the previous time you were working on he with himself you are in that he is acting in that way many times when you intercourse with him his and a demon comes in and you're just a demon uh i think i think it's much more complicated i think like now there's a demon aspect to you okay it doesn't make sense yes yeah just like the guy who

died next to jesus because he deserves to be crucified to show that he's probably really bad but right before like seconds before he died he said to jesus i repent and then jesus was like okay heaven welcomes you so then there is this aspect of redemption to the end of a very evil person's life otherwise all these last ending um repentance right asking the priest to come to your house and forgive you as what has happened to oscar wilde actually right he has lived the life of dorian gray till the last end right like literally the day before he died and he converted to catholicism all of a sudden which he was the most anti -christ person right in his age but you know so then we can safely assume that oscar wilde's somewhere in purgatory if we pray for him maybe he will speed up to heaven right like

so there is this yeah so it's really interesting because because what donna is referring to is the unity of the universe of the cosmos right so not only are you do exist among like amongst different dimensions but you're also connected to everyone else okay if that makes sense all right does that

answer your question oh i mean but it was still virgil who kind of started off hell when he wrote the iniat or was it was hell like because in the roman or greek like religious views there isn't really a conception of hell so before virgil there wasn't hell basically or okay so first of all there was

an exception it was called the underworld all right right so if you read the in the ad in his journeys to the underworld and he meets the shades right uh dido is there they're all shades so verge so don is drawing from that that in the underworld you're all just shades that's point one point two is that if the fundamental law of the universe is free will that means these places are constantly changing over time so maybe before christianity this was a pagan hell pagan underworld with the rise of christianity then we added christian elements to it for a collective imagination so the nature of hell changes over time as a conscience of humanity changes over time right does that make sense because i thought of this question probably

as well because you said in an interview i think once that you yourself don't believe in hell

really right um yeah what i believe is that we exist in infinite dimensions and um you can describe the some of these dimensions as hellish right they're just low dimensions uh where your lowest lowest emotions are based or are stored right so um what i mean by that is when people refer to hell they mean eternal damnation right like when you go to hell like you're there forever you can't escape hell and i think what dante is saying is like no um there's no such thing as eternal damnation you can choose eternal damnation but it's your choice so if you make the effort you can always uh leave hell and this is something that we will learn in purgatory okay because what virtual is saying is that you can never you can never leave hell you are not a christian and so you are you must be in limbo okay so there's an absolute sense

to virgil whereas for dante there's nothing absolute in the world okay everything is evolving everything is changing it's dynamic depending on how you feel yes yeah everything's organic yes right so uh the difference between heaven and hell is hell is mechanical whereas heaven it's organic okay okay does that make sense to you or

maybe well one thing also that springs to my mind is like how well people who only read for example the in yet only know that you don't have a choice to get out of hell so if you die without ever reading the divine comedy then it's kind of difficult to get out of hell for you that's

right and that's why and that's why dante had to write divine comedy to give hope to the world and this is something we will discuss actually as we go as we go on in purgatory because again virgil is absolute here right yes

i think it's also uh where you would put yourself it's not like god created hell and then like he just chooses is like we said also yesterday that the difference between inferno and purgatory were was the attitude growth mindset and optimistic and so like it would change like if your attitude would change then you're you're placed with change and you would like transcend in like these dimensions that's right that's right

and that's why for dante the hope of the world is poetry right because okay you bring in a new emperor and he conquers the world and he establishes peace for 20 years where you're back to the same situation after he dies right so what you need to do is expand the human consciousness through poetry uh and that's why um you know he feels he needs to respond to virgil okay he's not trying to cancel virgil but he's trying to respond to virgil and add to virgil to give people hope okay does that make sense all right so any more questions yes yeah maybe to to build off that um

i'm reading bart airman's uh yes journeys through heaven and hell yes and essentially what they do is he talks about every single story that's ever written that's like dante's like hey i went down to hell and i walked around and stuff like this um and they're all um it's almost like how i read the inferno like back in the day but this is a different story and i think that's the thing that's in high school where it's like oh there's lots of punishments and stuff like this and they were all all these stories were created um because they're like looking for a way to control in the real life the elites are like uh enjoy your poverty because you're gonna have eternal blessings and if you if you get out of line if you do any revolts then these are the bad things that are gonna happen um dante is revolutionary because he was able

to take aquinas and augustine and actually make a philosophy behind all of this and and tie it up with the theology so that we can

have these amazing conversations that we're having exactly that's exactly right uh yes so as

we move from inferno to purgatory and um heaven it seems there's this linear path to you know things get better there's more hope but what uh confuses me a bit is that purgatory still seems uh fairly arduous but before we spoke about limbo which is technically still in hell and it seems easier

yeah um right so this is a paradox right limbo is a very pleasant retirement community okay but purgatory is arduous well the difference is in emotions of people right in limbo they're sighing all the time because they've given up hope they feel hopeless okay whereas in purgatory even though it's arduous they are singing they're excited they're curious okay does that make sense so it's not about um the actual place it's about how you feel while you're there okay uh yes with my husband like

i just want to thumping like lay flat and enjoy my life and he's like no you should work it's kind of the same as a retirement community versus working arduously to climb a mountain because my husband is totally into hiking he's having the purpose of man is to you know achieve something to an end where i just want to live in retirement and he's like then you are less of a human if you live in a retirement community i'm like wow thank you very much to say i have no pursuit in life but i think it's the same idea yeah that's what men ought to be

uh yes i don't know if this is too literal way of looking at it but so you've got this journey right through purgatory and if you can clean yourself for the sins you'll finally get to heaven if you feel more or less bull triste that i have a question is do you want to have a community all over the world i want to be part of a community you want to get to heaven i want to work idea i don't know if we'll see it later of how successful people are in actually making it all

the way everyone is successful like once you enter purgatory you will succeed right because

you've made the choice to succeed okay yes um so so before you mentioned there's people there's some people done um bad deeds that too bad they're um in annihilation they're not even in hell does that mean these people don't have a chance to read them themselves no no they choose not to redeem themselves they're happy in hell no you mentioned they're in annihilation nihilation

well well i mean yes they're in annihilation because they choose they chose not to live

so after oh so after their choice they are forever um yeah because like like they just chose to

do nothing in life they just told to um sleep food life right how's that different from like animals or plants oh so does that

does that choice is instant like like um yeah they don't exist it's your choice not to exist

you have that choice okay okay uh yes um i was trying to maybe foolishly um correlate like ethics uh with the inferno yes um and i was thinking like we don't hear it explicit maybe we do and maybe i missed it but we don't explicitly hear um anybody say like this is a a punishment for rapists probably lost somewhere um but modern ethics would say like what's the three worst things you can do is like rape murder but then slavery and there was a lot of people today that would say like slavery is worse than murder because slavery is like slaves would happily kill themselves and stuff like this and it makes so i did some research on this and augustine would say that it's a it's a byproduct of the fall is that when sin entered the world then people learned to to be less kind to each other and there were hierarchies involved

and then slaves were involved because even in dante's time slavery is less and we're moving into feudalism but it's not gone and it's just

a economic reality yeah you make a great point about slaves in the divine comedy there are no slaves okay and there's a very good reason why because in this world you choose to be a slave because rather forward your life uh sorry you rather for your freedom than your life you give your free will in order to um protect your life and if you think about it logically for dante you can't do that because free will is god's gift to you and you just keep giving up like nothing really okay so so slaves don't matter like if you if you choose to be a slave it's like i choose not to live anymore okay you're basically a zombie uh yes but what if you didn't choose to be a slave you were forced to be a slave no that's that's about dante you're you've always made a choice you've always made a choice even if

you are born a slave you can choose to run away if you're born a slave you can choose to rebel i i know it sounds a bit extreme but that's how donnie sees the world

yes yes back there i mean i i hate to just just beat a dead horse but like what if rebelling would just mean instant death and you know that for certain so that's your free will would you go to hell or limbo or where if like yes then that's called civil disobedience right

i bet there were i forgot who uh one of the great philosophers where he was put to jail if he did not agree to one of the government socrates yeah i think so yeah and then so he was stoned to death

and so right so uh so i mean you think death is the worst thing that can happen to you you don't have any faith you understand i do actually agree with you i would just um right right i think that's what donnie would say right to faith our faith is to believe that god gave us free choice god wants us to live the best life possible and if we cannot live the best life possible then our souls are immortal and we come back at a little point okay but what's what matters is to protect the purity of your soul and that means to protect your free will okay if you rather like surrender your free will just so that you can be you live live um then

you know yes it's kind of like the dragon ball festival which is celebrated like qian rather die and throw himself into the river then so there's another act of civil disobedience we still celebrate a lot with saints heroes whoever we call them right who die chooses to

die exactly yes but then are we saying it's inherently sinful to stay as a slave because you'll have no free will but what if you're a slave and you're treated fairly well and you're

somewhat content with how you are is that sinful um yeah i mean what this is again is a lack of faith right it's lack of understanding of who you are you are here to live the best life possible you're here to be an inspiration to others you're here to co -create the universe you're not here to like i don't know like just get by

uh yes i suppose where where then i go with this is then surely through dante's lens should we all just quit our jobs because basically in modern society right if we're working that free will is

also taken um no that's not what donnie would say donnie would say trust your intuition if your intuition is i should just quit my job and do something else sure right but it depends on your situation it depends on your intuition there can be no absolute rule right there can be no principles it depends on your own individual understanding of the situation your own intuition

yeah that's what i mean so if the slave is a slave but their intuition says it's fine i'm looked after

then it's fine yeah if you think you're being a slave then you should quit your job okay uh yes

yes yes oh yeah i was wondering if you can just maybe give us some diagram about the dentist because i think dante make a diagram which is we can put other people into the diagram for example like uh some hero in in china or some hero in the like hamlet right so i don't know if hamlet just on one hand just tried revenge right but he also tried to make justice for for his father so what do you think about hamlet for example do you think he would be in the dentist

limbo or in the yeah in the jeopardize in the paradise well i mean i think that hamlet would be in paradise uh because first of all hamlet is a poet and second of all he chose to live a righteous life right um um i'm sorry he wouldn't be in heaven because he did kill um claudius right uh so he'd been purgatory but i mean he wouldn't be there for long okay he would have to re repent uh when we didn't miss some of his sin but um uh i mean like like i don't want to go to hamlet uh because it's a very complicated situation but if you actually understand the plot of hamlet it was not vengeance it was not murder it was justice the reason why is that first hamlet conducted an investigation to confirm the guilt of claudius and then there was a trial okay if you remember the plot of hamlet

there's a there's a trial an open trial where um evan could see the guilt of claudius okay and so hamlet what he was ordered to uh avenge his father and he and he delayed the process but he he wanted to turn the act of vengeance into an act of justice okay and again i don't want to get too much into hamlet it's a very complicated play okay uh yes this would be in the first circle

of heaven because they are just content with their life and they abandon free will like for me this just makes sense to put them here not in heaven they're not in heaven but you know like we saw like the first circle of heaven like the first thing that come through the fact of them being uh heaven it was like people who just gave up free will so it was like nuns who like married uh some guy and just like accepted their their like right so so that's what we can so the moon

uh which is about the moon yeah uh picarda didn't give up her free will she made a vow to god okay and then she was violently forced out of the vow by her brother you're right okay so

so that's not slavery uh yes like is this sort of um philosophy that you'd better give up your life than your free will why cato is in purgatory instead of in hell because like i remember you said that he he killed himself as to like not be one of caesar's followers you're right

and that and that's why he's in purgatory right okay was that a question okay

yeah that's right yes exactly okay uh yes um obviously i'm not an expert on slaves or history but from like the limited knowledge that i know slaves oftentimes um slave owners would really terrorize their slaves like every single week there would be public bashings to really instill fear into the slaves to ensure that they don't run away so the slaves in turn they like learned okay i can't run away but they still had the strength to run away so they knew how to run away and i think that's one of the points that i think about in your book is that they were just getting their rights back before they even got out of prison before they even got out of prison they had their freedom they didn't come right they just they're sleeping there and but they're on their own so i think that's um that's

really at the core of the story is like the fact of like how many reigns are in the middle ages and how many of them are alive and how many of them are dead and how much of that is like why don't you know about that though because like it's kind of what's been going on in history food where are you getting this information from okay so let's think think about how slavery happens okay in ancient times we had slaves because um i would my army would go conquer your city and then i give you a choice you either die or you become slaves right and it's your choice and so when you when you become a slave it means that you are now my property you forfeit your humanity you forfeit your free will you are now my property and because it's your free will to make this choice you no longer can resist

do you understand okay that's where slavery comes from so slavery is people who choose to become become slaves rather than to die uh yes but i'm not i'm

not saying i disagree but like the question here is you are essentially if you go to hell like you're punishing people for their own individuality and their own choice but kind i feel like you're kind of disregarding the influence of society on them like the like shouldn't you be criticizing society for having slaves and limiting their freedom and not allowing them to exercise their free will rather than criticizing the slaves for not having faith enough to criticize their free will uh yes

i forgot who said it but men are born free but everywhere he goes he's in chains virgil yeah and so in your case of slavery i think you refer to north american black african americans right so they are born into slavery and there is no you know choice you know because they are beaten like uncle tom right um but i think what dante is saying that it's every one of us who are born into this world we are born women who are inferior by society judge usually but you know compared to men they are black people who are born into this world and they are not born of you know with black skin there are people who are born into slavery there are all kinds of people who are born into you know dna deficit where you are you know shorter or you live shorter you get cancer you know so all of us are

born free but you live in chains so you can always make a your you know choice to live a better life like mother moses who got away where we heard a lot of underground railroad where a lot of these people try to run away and they don't run away

you know and yeah yeah back there i just want to say two things number one it was russo not voltaire who said that yes that's correct yes um and number two just in reference to your point about the slaves spitting in the food and poisoning the master's drink spitting in the food is one thing poisoning the master's drink would be a true act of rebellion trying to reclaim your free will but it would just be very difficult for a slave to acquire poison without money and these things are you exercising your free will but you are not reclaiming your full free will you have to

break free a hundred percent okay um so you guys are working on the assumption that slaves aren't happy okay you're thinking to yourself that slaves really want freedom and it's just like they're being beaten every day so they can't have this freedom that's not how it works okay if you read these um iron curtain dissidents like back on havel an actor showing showing this then they say it's all about life under totalitarian regimes which is it's all just a facade it's all just theater and we're all just actors on this stage and what is shocking to them is everyone chooses to participate in this facade they just say it's all just a lie right it's like in the moment people are like you know what screw this system the system collapses which is exactly what happened to the Berlin Berlin wall in the in the Soviet Union right just one day people were like I

no longer want to participate in this facade and then the system collapses okay so you're working an assumption that these slaves are being controlled by these overlords evil overlords but the reality is that slaves believe I should be a slave I want to be a slave I find meaning in being a slave and for Dante that is just outrageous yes

but I mean like how could you assume that the slaves are happy about themselves in the first hand because I feel like generally is like at least easier for us to understand that they are not happy because of all those violence that the slave holders kind of like cast onto them and also like at the same time if they are truly happy isn't it in some ways reclaiming their own free will if they are happy like that's my two questions I'm just kind of confused with okay so

happy is a very strong word they're just complacent okay uh yes so I opened this can of worms and I

didn't even explain what I what I learned at the end of it um bringing ethics into Dante is incorrect racism is unethical there's no racist in hell um and so Dante the question isn't is slavery unjust or unethical it's is the social order properly ordained toward God and so slavers people that own slaves can end up in hell for any number of years so I'm not gonna go into the details but a things but slavery is just a byproduct of the fall and so you're not going to end up in hell for the fall you're going to help for violence or any number of things there are guests in your house so if you kill your slave then you would be in the bottom level of hell um that sucks in this modern world where we equate slavery as one of the worst sins it just doesn't yeah so remember in in

divine comedy there are no slavers there are no slaves anywhere okay it's not really really an issue at at this point all right okay so let's uh continue um uh divine comedy okay so this is

what kennel five now yep all right uh purgatory canto five i had already left those shades behind and followed in the footsteps of my guide when they're beneath me pointing at me one shade shouted see the second climber climb the sun seems not to shine on his left side and when he walks he walks like one alive when i heard these words i turned my eyes and saw the shades astonished as they stared at me at me and at the broken light why have you let your mind get so entwined my master said that you have slowed your walk why should you care about what's whispered here come follow me and let these people talk then like a sturdy tower that does not shake at summit through the though the winds may blast always the man in whom thought thrusts ahead of thought allows the goal he said to move far off the force of

one thought saps the other's force could my reply other than i come and somewhat colored by the hue that makes one sometimes merit grace i spoke those

words okay so let's figure out what's happening here visually okay so dante and virgil are walking and they're trying to get to the gate of purgatory so they can climb the mountain of purgatory because beatrice is waiting for dante right and as they're walking they get spotted by lots of shades and why are these shades interested in dante why because he has a shadow yeah right because he has a shadow because he's different from they are so they gawk and they want to talk to him right and what does donnie do in response listens he doesn't he doesn't listen

he slows his walk to kind of consider what they're doing and wonder why is he slowing his walk because he's second guessing or not second guessing

why is he slowing his walk virgil is like speeding ahead and virgil and donnie is like you know walking really slowly walking really gingerly but why is he doing that anyone so we've seen this quite a few times already right where the souls gawk at him and says hey shadow and then dante just gingerly

slows down why would he do that yes he wonders if he can help them in some way or if they're like they can give him information about the ascent you're such a you're such a generous and

optimistic person no yes like you're like the celebrity of purgatory exactly do you understand

okay it's like a movie star walks into a shopping mall and gets mobbed does he not know he's gonna get mobbed right he's he's gonna walk into some wall to get mobbed right and like so virgil's pissed off at dante like because it's happened quite a few times now right where he's like slowing down just so like the shades can get like it's kind of like a very aggressive kind of like surround him and said hey can i have your autograph right and so um so first of all um why is Dante famous why is he famous no no no no why why is he famous like he has a body no no why it's a shadow right it has a shadow okay what is this a reference to you worship shadows what's this a reference to Plato right how do you go to the cave all reality is a shadow if you worship shadows

you are in hell right how do you go to the cave Plato so let's expand this okay they're in purgatory which is the light so it's like Dante and Virgil have escaped the cave but what they're still stuck in the cave mentally right they still think shadows are real and they shit shades worship uh Dante because he has a shadow why what what is Donnie trying to trying to say here what's the shadow anyone uh yes what is the shadow explain the metaphor to me well it tries

to imitate something real right right but it's not yeah uh it's two -dimensional as well it's

two -dimensional yes it means that in the platonic idea that a form has been instantiated so that when light shines on it beings can perceive it and that it's not in the formic world anymore

okay yes yes uh I think it's the negative aspects of Dante that he collected in hell so it's still like his you know like when he was dirty and he needed to clean himself he's still like dirty of his shadow yeah so it's gonna be that's right that's right so shadow is an aspect left over

from hell yes that yes it's also Eclipse of light that's how shadow is created

what is the shadow metaphor for excuse me is this scene no no shadow is a metaphor for what

in this instance is it a lack of light so it's blocking light in a way uh yes you could okay

the ego what what projection no no no just concepts that's not God what uh so uh in the

in allegory of the cave there are people who sit at the bottom of the cave and they're in chains and they're looking at a wall and out this wall are shadows and like if you go outside the cave there's actually people and then there's a fire so the the um the shadow on the wall is the projection of the fire of the action of people so that I think the shadow probably means um an illusion knowledge that you only gain from looking at it yes absence of God maybe fame guys it it's a

metaphor for fame right you understand and why is this important Don is obsessed with fame you understand what we're saying is that Don is obsessed with fame and why would this be

important for us well fame as a pride is a sin right but but what but why would this be a problem

yes it would be something he needs to work on in puritory right right but I'm saying like why is it

a problem now yes because it's just slowing him down yes because he's trying to get to Beatrice right you understand this is a metaphor fame is what slows you down from achieving God from achieving reunion with God there's that okay now here here's a hard question who put this idea in his head who said Virgil do you remember where we discussed this right do you guys remember what was the correct what was the exact phrase Virgil said when when was when did Virgil say say this what was the context you guys remember we discussed this okay so they are in hell they are in the circle of fraud and they're climbing these boulders right and it's tiring for Dante so Donnie slows down and Virgil says to him hurry up for what why should you hurry up excuse me for fame right the exact phrase was ever lasting fame remember right and we said Virgil

wanted to say for Beatrice right but instead Virgil says for everlasting fame right you guys remember this and now Dante that'll think shadow has made him is in purgatory right but the irony is that it's a shadow therefore we know it's not everlasting and it's slowing him down in fact he's not actually walking anywhere okay he'd rather talk to the shades he'd rather just like be adored and adulated by his fans he's not actually doing

going anywhere yes and it also tries to then mirror what he wants actually in reality in real life he wants this fame right yes and he but he gets the exact opposite by being excellent yes

yes okay does that make sense he thinks he virgil said you're doing this for everlasting fame and now he's like well i have everlasting fame so i'll just stay here okay but the everlasting fame what gives an everlasting fame is the shadow and we know shadows are just illusions does that make sense and this happens this happened a lot where don is slowing down because he wants the fans to come adore him okay he wants that everlasting fame and where's beatrice in his mind it's it's like she's kind of gone now right he's like ah my choice is climb all the way up to the mount purgatory and be with beatrice or stay here and be doing my fans i'd rather be adored by my fans all right does that make sense all right okay line 22 meanwhile along the slope crossing our road slightly ahead

of us people approached singing the mr verse by verse when they became aware that allowed no path for rays of light to cross my body they changed their song into a long horse oh do you see what's happening here right these souls are

committed to god they see don is like this is actually more interesting than god okay i keep

on going and two of them serving as messengers hurried to meet us and those two inquired please tell us something more of what you are my master answered them you can return and carry this report and move on if you're on your way out of this goal that's a handful of people you can return and this man is flesh if as i think they stop to see his shadow that answer is sufficient let them welcome him graciously and that may profit them

his bands now okay and that and donnie loves this i'm going also who make your way to gladness with

the limbs you had at birth do stay your steps a while they clamored as they came to see if there's any of us whom you knew that you may carry word of him beyond why do you hurry on why don't you stop we all were done to death by violence and we all sinned until our final hour then light from heaven granted understanding so that repenting and forgiving we came forth from life at peace with god and he instilled in us the longing to see him and i although i scrutinize your faces i recognize no one but spirits born to goodness if there's anything within my power that might please you then by that same peace which in the steps of such a guide i seek from world to world i shall perform it and one began we all have faith in your good offices without your oath as long as lack of power does

not curb your will thus i who speak alone before the others beseech you if you ever see the land that lies between romania and the the realm of charles that you'd be courteous to me and treating those in fauno to bestow fair prayers to purge me of my heavy sins my home was fauno with piercing wounds from which there poured the blood where my life lived those i received among entanor's son there where i thought that i was most secure for he of este hating me far more than justice warranted had that deed done but had i fled instead of toward mira when they overtook me at oriaco then i should still be able to see you in that realm of charles that you be courteous to me and treating those in fauno to bestow fair prayers to purge me of my heavy sins beyond where men draw breath i hurried to the marsh the

mud the reeds entangled me i fell and there i saw a pool pour from my veins from on the ground wait sorry so let's stop i want to ask

everyone a question okay can you become so famous that it takes you it takes you to heaven let's let's think about this okay will celebrities go to heaven yes uh because the first commandment

is you shall have no other god before me and celebrities basically make themselves idols that they are literally called idols um unless they are like i don't know idols that points to god maybe so then they become prophets instead of idols uh like john the baptist um but so john the baptist was a celebrity back then but he points to jesus so it's okay uh yeah okay um yes i guess

we've got we've got false counselors in hell and there can be true counselors and so you could be a famous true counselor

right right like like me right like like like i have my own youtube channel and i'm spreading wisdom is this going to get me to heaven please say yes i think so but i think the answer is no is that is that actually going to help me get to heaven why not what gets you to heaven from if you're in purgatory what gets you um up to heaven uh yes uh

just a question from jimmy saying if you don't use your own imagination which is the most inspiring imagination and maybe the problem with celebrities and idols is even if say the message is right people will blindly follow what they say and not use their own

imaginations okay sure but again i i don't appraise myself too much but i feel as though my youtube channel i am educating a lot of people and i am in by teaching you i am increasing your imagination right so i like to think that i would get into heaven but probably not

will be the same as all the great thinkers who has you know intellectual giants that we have depended on before just like virgil socrates aristotle plato uh yeah i probably end up in

limbo thank you thank you yeah all right yeah yes because the journey to heaven is still personal fundamentally is is your journey of self -improvement and self -reflection that will bring you there you can still be a celebrity while doing it yes you can you need to almost turn that celebrity into something that helps yourself improve as opposed to the other way around

so how can i like you know get up to heaven faster i think in general the journey to heaven

or to purgatory or to hell really start after a person completes his life's journey so until the person completes his life journey there's no uh you know

there's no start okay how can i like give me some personal advice okay yes yes if people pray for

you then it's gonna speed and who's gonna pray for me not you guys no no my family do you understand

okay that's what donna's saying here it's revolutionary right you mean as famous you want you can have a trillion dollars you can be a massive celebrity it doesn't matter okay what matters is your family what matters are your neighbors what matters is your community because these people are going to pray for you every single day with all their heart and soul yeah i mean your fans might now and then say oh you know let's give a prayer to professor john it doesn't matter okay what matters is your you have to put your heart and soul into praying for someone and only your family would do that okay so so that's what donnie's saying here don't chase fame fame doesn't get you anywhere chase love chase okay be kind to the people around you and they will pray for you after you die okay does it make sense all right let's get right right here line

85 another shade then said ah

so made that desire would choss you up the lofty mountain be granted with kind pity help my longing i was from monte felt tro i'm buan conte jovana and the rest they all neglect me therefore among these shades i go in sadness and i to him leave baord i have an earth that lends and i to him draw with violence or chance so dragged you from the field of campaldino that we know nothing of your burial place oh he replied across the casentino there runs a stream called archiano born in the eponines above the hermitage there at the place where that stream's name is lost i came my throat was pierced fleeing on foot and bloodying the plane and there it was that i lost sight and speech and there as i finished i had finished uttering the name of mary i fell and there my flesh alone remained i'll speak the truth do you

among the living retell it i was taken by god's angel but he from hell cried you from heaven why do you deny me him for just one tear carry off his deathless part but i shall treat his other part and otherwise you were now in the air moist vapor will gather and again revert to rain as soon as it has climbed where cold unfolds his evil will which only seeks out evil conjoined with intellect and with the power his nature grants he stirred up you wind and vapor and then when day was gone he filled the valley from prado manio far as the great ridge with mist the sky above was such saturated the dense air was converted into water rain fell and then the gullies had to carry whatever water earth could not receive and when that rain was gathered into torrents it rushed so swiftly toward the royal river that nothing could contain

its turbulence the angry archiano at its mouth had found my frozen body and it thrust it into the arno and sat loose the cross that on my chest my arms in pain had formed it rolled me on the banks and riverbed that covered girded me with this debris pray after you're returning to the world when after your long journey and you've rested the third soul following the second said may you remember me who am lapia sienna made marima made me he who when we were wet gave me his pledge and then as nuptial ring his gem knows that so these are souls who die for us and so this is the soul

in battle okay and right now in history a lot of people are dying in battle it's basically gang warfare throughout italy okay fashionable fighting just endless wars and so if you die in the battlefield and uh you repent um you're put in in purgatory but if you die violently you don't you don't have a chance to repent you're still put in purgatory and you have to wait a bit before you can move on okay so again what donna is trying to emphasize is god is merciful and god is just

okay count on six when dicing's done and players separate the losers left alone this consulate rehearsing what he'd thrown he sadly learns all the crowd surrounds the one who won one goes in front and one tugs at his back and at his side one asks to be remembered he does not halt but listens to them all and when he gives them something they desist and so he can fend off the pressing throng and i in that persistent pack was such this way in that i turned my face to them and making promises escaped their clutch there was the eritene who met his death beneath guino de tacos beast johan and one who drowned when in pursuit he ran there with his outstretched hands was federico novello praying and the pisan who made good marxutko who show his fortitude i saw count orso and i saw the soul cleft from its body out of spite and

envy not it is a a I mean pierre de la brasse and may the lady of brabant while she still knows this world watch her ways or end among a sadder flog as soon as i was free from all those shades who always pray for others prayers for them so as to reach their blessed state more quickly i started oh my light it seems to me that in one passage you deny expressly that prayer can bend the rule of heaven yet these people pray precisely for that end is there hope therefore only hope is the only hope is the only emptiness or have i not read clearly what you said

okay so what donnie is doing is he's listing a lot of people from his real life okay and it's a lot of people from his real life um we don't know who they are he but he knows who they are why is he doing this why is he listing so many people from his real life who who died why would he do that uh yes

shakespearean where if i write you in poem you live everlastingly so that's one thing to commemorate his peers that's a great point yes and then the other one is to console their family for writing but hey by the way your son is in purgatory you know like don't be too sad yeah that's a great

point so so even though we don't know who they are his readers will know who they are and they're consoled by the fact that their loved ones are in purgatory um and so what's the effect of that

to know that your loved one is in purgatory yes to the widows and the mothers and the family

and and what will they do with their hope pray really hard for them yeah it's it's making people live a life of faith hope and love right because because otherwise they don't know where their loved ones are they could be they could they've been held they could be in heaven so without this hope what would they do usually what what are rich people people doing at this time you guys know that's exactly that onto corruption that's exactly what they're doing okay they're ex that they don't know they're uncertain so they're gonna give huge bribes to catholic church which as you point out feeds the corruption which feeds this honest cycle of violence right so by saying don't worry your loved one is in purgatory don't bother church pray for this person okay does that make sense yeah all right okay let's let's keep on going line 34 and he to me oh sorry sorry sorry

sorry i've got okay all right so dante here and knows that if you pray for a loved one enough, this is going to reduce the loved one's time in purgatory. But we already said God is not transactional, right? God has perfect justice. You are punished for the crime you committed. If your loved ones are praying for you, why should that matter? And what Donna says to Virgil is, hey, in your in the ad, okay, you said very clearly, we mortals cannot at all impact the decision of the gods. We have absolutely no say in this divine cosmos. So what is it, okay? That's a question that Donna asked Virgil. And let's analyze Virgil's response.

Line 34. And he to me, my text is plain enough, and yet their hope is not delusive. It's one scrutinized. This is it with sober with the peak of justice is not lowered when the fire of love accomplishes in one instant, the expiation owed by all who dwell here. For where I started this, that prayers could not mend their fault. I spoke of prayers without a passageway to God, but in a quandary, so deep, do not conclude with me, but wait for word that she, the light between your mind and truth will speak less. You misunderstand the, she, I mean, as Beatrice upon this mountain's peak there, you shall see her smiling joyously.

This is such a great response from Virgil. Okay. Don't think it's asking him, Hey, Virgil, did you say your tax in the Ennead, which is the Bible, right? Um, we cannot at all impact the decision of the heavens and here in purgatory, we're seeing clearly prayers are lifting people up faster to the heavens. So what is it? And what is Virgil's response? Can you paraphrase paraphrase for me what he's saying here? It says. That's a great response. And it shows you so much into his character. What does he say? Paraphrase for me. His response.

Yes. When I wrote it, president worked like that. Why not? Because Jesus hadn't died or Mary had not given birth to him.

That's right. So this is, so I was talking about the pagans guys. This, this is Christian. You understand that's his first response, right? Well, what I meant was the pagan world, not the Christian world. Now it's different. And what is the second response to me? Yeah. Don't bother me, man. Go, go talk to Beatrice. Okay. His two responses are one. Well, it's different now because it's a Christian world and to go talk to Beatrice. Okay. So, so why is Virgil responding the way he is again? This is different from Beatrice, right? Where Beatrice will actually tell you the answer, right? What?

Yes. He really doesn't want Dante to slow down. And just get involved with this nonsense.

You're such a generous, optimistic person, man. Yes.

That authoritarian teacher is like, shut up and move on. Okay. Don't question me. I'm your teacher. Kind of just go shoot.

Like, if you ask someone these questions, that question says, well, it's a different world now. And also go talk to another person. Why would you think that person has to respond the way that he or she wants, like, has your teacher responded?

He's just coping.

It's cope. Yes. But it's also what?

Dodging the questions.

Do you know what I mean?

Dodging the questions. Yeah.

He doesn't want to think about this. You understand? He does not want to think about why this is happening. Dante proposes a contradiction. He's like, well, actually there's a loophole. Okay. He's like being a lawyer here. He's trying to dodge the question. He's trying to avoid the question because he does not, he himself does not want to reflect on what's really going on. Okay. He wants to maintain his worldview, right? We talked yesterday about fixed mindset versus growth mindset. It's a fixed mindset. Right. Okay.

Uh, let's keep on going and I, oh, actually line 49 and I Lord, let us move ahead more quickly for now. I'm less weary than before. And you can see the slope now cast a shadow as long as it is day we'll make as much headway as possible. He answered, but our climb won't be as rapid as you thought you will not reach the peak before you see the sun returning. Now he hides behind the hills. You cannot interrupt his flight.

Okay. So Donnie says, Lord, let us move ahead more quickly for now. I'm less worried than before. And you, and you can see the slope now has a shadow. Why is Dante less wary than before?

Yes, because he's left his fans behind, but he's happy that he had fans.

Yeah. Again, you're so generous with Dante. No. Big, big, big, like, like Dante is a really proud people person. Yes. Uh, yeah. That's way too generous for Dante. Yeah. Why is Donnie really excited now? Yes.

He's like, I saw all the loopholes that you make and now I'm above you in the way.

No, no, no, no. What does Dante care the most about right now?

Yes. Progress or journey so that he can meet more offense.

What did Dante see that makes him happy now?

Dante himself.

No, no, no, no. Guys, read the text. I'm asking you a question. What did Donnie see? Yes. The slope now casts a shadow. Yes. What did he see now? Well, people or. No guys. What's he seeing now? That's like, whoa. Yes. Great. No, no, no, no. Come on. What's he seeing right now? Literally. The peak. Literally. What's he seeing right now? What's he saying? Literally. He sees what? He's focused on this.

Maybe a friend. So 61. We came to him. Oh, Lombard.

No, no, no, no, no, no. You're jumping ahead. I just want to focus on these three sentences, right? What's he seeing now? That the slope is easier. This is so hard for you guys. Okay. He sees something. It makes him really, really happy. Excited. What is it?

Paradise.

Let's keep on going. Okay. Let's go. Huh? Yeah. Like, you guys keep on going. I can't see it. Right? He sees it. It makes him really, really happy. Beatrice. Okay. Let's read it again. Okay. There's only like so many possibilities here and you got, I just want something he sees here that makes him really, really happy. Yes. The slope cast a shadow. But what does he see?

Like casting a shadow on something other than himself.

Guys visualize this. What is he seeing right now? What's he focused on right now?

Did not align. Line 46, 47.

Let's just focus on these three lines. What three lines?

Three lines.

Oh, 49 to 51. Sorry. Can you read it again for everyone? 49 to 51. Sorry.

And I, Lord, let us move ahead more quickly. For now I am less weary than before. And you can see the slope now casts a shadow.

What does he see? Is it that purgatory is real to him now? No, no. What did he like literally see right now? Another shadow.

He sees a shadow and he's really happy about it. Why?

Because he's, he's also still in the cave mentally.

Right. So, so why is he having to see the shadow? What's going to happen now?

Maybe another friend.

He's going to chase the shadow. Right, right. So, so this is, what's happening is he sees shadow and so, so what he knows, so what does happen? What's going to happen now once a shadow is cast? He's going to be mauled by his fans again, right? You understand? So that's what makes him excited. Not Beatrice, not God, not the slope, not purgatory. He's like, screw all that. I want my shadow, man. That's what I care about. Okay. Every time I catch a shadow, people are going to run up to me and say, hey, can I have the autograph? So he's become addicted to his own fame. Do you understand the idea here? Okay. He's narcissistic. He's like, all I care about is my shadow. Now I like forget Beatrice, forget heaven. I care about my shadow. That's it. Okay. And this is also true for people who are celebrities today, right?

All they care about is their fame, right? If you're a social media influencer, what's the only thing you care about exactly, right? The metrics, the number of subscriptions you have, the amount of views you get, right? That's all you care about. And you're always like, how do I get more? How do I get more of these subscriptions? And so what happens eventually to some? Yes.

I had consumed by it. So then they are eaten alive. So then they do all kinds of extreme outrageous things because blood and gore is what sells the newspaper. So then you, at the end, turn into destruction of yourself.

Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, there's so many examples, right. Of social media influencers who kill themselves or who do outrageous things to attract attention. Cause like. All they care about are the ratings, okay. Right. So, so that's what Donnie is saying here. Like fame makes you egotistical, narcissistic, and it's an empty life. Okay. Cause like literally all he cares about now is his shadow, okay. Which is just an illusion. Right. That doesn't make sense. You guys. All right.

Uh, let's, let's keep on reading 52 as long as it is stay, we'll make as much headway as possible. He answered, but our climb won't be as rapid as you thought. You will not reach the peak before you see the sun returning. Now he hides behind the hills. You cannot interrupt his light, but see beyond a soul who is completely apart and seated looking toward us. He will show us where to climb most speedily. We came to him. Oh, Lombard soul. What pride and what to stay and we're in your stands. Your eyes moved with such dignity, such gravity. He said no thing to us, but let us pass his eyes intent upon us. Okay. Only as the lion watches when it is at rest. Yet Virgil made his way to him, appealing to him to show us how we'd best ascend. And he did not reply to that request, but asked us what our

country was and who we were at which my gentle guide began Mantua and that spirit who had been so solitary rose from his position saying, oh, Mantua and I'm Sodelo from your own land and each embrace the other. Okay.

So, um, Virgil has met on the poet Sodelo, who is actually a very important poet. He has something called a. Troubadour, which is a love poet, uh, a poet of the quality love tradition. Okay. Uh, and they're both from, from the same place. And so they embrace each other and you can see how happy and enthusiastic Virgil is to meet someone from, um, the same area. I keep, keep on going.

Line 76, uh, abject Italy, your, you in of sorrows, you ship without a Helmsman Helmsman and harsh seas, no queen of provinces, but off bordellos. That noble soul had said. Such enthusiasm. His city's sweet name was enough for him to welcome their, his fellow citizen. But those who are alive within you now can't live without their warring. Even those whom one same wall and one same moat and close not each other squalid Italy search around your shores and then look inland. See if any part of you delight in peace. What use was there in a Justinian's mending your bridle when the saddles empty indeed, was there no rains, your shame or less are you, who have you understood what God or. And would then attend to things devout and in the saddle surely would allow Caesar to sit. See how this beast turns spheres because there are no spurs that would correct it. Since you

have laid your hands upon the bit, Oh, German Albert, you who have abandoned that steed become recalcitrant and savage. You who should ride a stride at saddle bow bows upon your blood made the just judgment of the stars to send with signs. So strange and plain that your successor has to feel its terror for both you and your father and your greed for lands. It lay more close at hand, allowed the garden of the empire to be gutted. Come you who pay no heed. Do come and see Montechi Capileti, sad already and filled with fear, Menaldi for the Pesci. Come cruel one, come see the tribulation of your nobility and heal their hurts and see and how disconsolate it's Santa Fiora. Come see your Rome who widowed and alone weeps bitterly both day and night. She moans, my Caesar, why are you not at my side? Come, see how much your people love each other,

and if no pity for us moves you, may shame for your own repute move you to act. And if I am allowed, oh highest Jove, to ask, you who on earth were crucified for us, have you turned elsewhere your just eyes? Or are you in your judgment step devising a good that we cannot see, completely dissevered from our way of understanding? For all the towns of Italy are full of tyrants, and each townsman who becomes a partisan is soon a traitor. My Florence, you indeed may be content that this digression would leave you exempt. Your people striving spare you this lament. Others have justice in their hearts, and thought is slow to let it fly off from their bow. But your folk keep it ready on their lips. Others refuse the weight of public service, whereas your people eagerly respond, even an ass and shout, I'll take it on. You might be happy now, for you have cause.

You with your richest peace, judiciousness. You with your wealth. If I speak truly, facts won't prove me wrong. Compared to you, Athens and Lacedaemon, though civil cities with their ancient laws had merely sketched the life of righteousness. For you devised provisions so ingenious, whatever threats October sees you spin, when mid -November comes will be unspun. How often in the time you can remember have you changed laws and coinage, offices and customs and revised your citizens? And if your memory has some clarity, then you will see your citizens. yourself like that sick woman who finds no rest upon her feather bed but turning tossing tries to

ease her pain okay so this kind of was about into two parts okay the first part we see the vanity of dante right all he cares about is this shadow because the shadow is bringing him everlasting fame where he is but in the second half of the canto dante goes on this lament about italy uh it's returning to the prophetic tradition where he is um saying that italy is full of sin um and he's being very sarcastic about all this he's being very ironic and um he's almost appealing to divine justice and saying that italy um is terrible it's full of sin it's like sodom and gomorrah and so how can we explain this uh the economy right on one hand you is just focused on his fame his shadow on the other hand he goes on this little mat about uh

the fate of italy yes i think because he's thinking what good could my fame ever do other than change italy and he's using this as an opportunity he's thinking about well i'm famous now it's kind of a meta thing to the reader speaking of fame what should a good famous person do but instruct his nation yeah okay anyone else yes i think also that he's talking about how he feels the pull of fame even in his self but there are people he's talking about that are even beyond that when they're not even asked to to do something they just try and gain power immediately who's your favorite celebrity like a movie star or like um i just tried to ditch all them for jesus because they were hand flows okay does anyone have a celebrity that they worship or whatever what are they like

yes kanye west yeah kyan west okay all right so why do you what what does kanye west say about the world that allows you to admire him uh not just not necessarily about his opinion

on the world um i admire him because he there's there's a saying of him uh is um we're just what what what we do um we should be we how should i phrase this um basically he's telling us to be who we are and to uh embrace us ourselves be be more courageous

yeah okay so you admire him for his songs which deliver a message of courage and uh hope okay

yes i would say uh kanye pretty much shares the same uh perspective with dante on on the world uh like um choose love over fear like be fearless and always be certain like be always be certain about who you are and like what your impact on the world right and be uh be imaginative right

are you concerned at all about his personal life the fact that you know he marries and divorces and he seems to pay no attention to his kids

are you at all concerned about his personal life i am pretty much concerned about his personal life and i don't think i i it doesn't seem good to me but uh besides those his personal life i think he still sticks sticks to himself and he's pretty much hadn't changed a bit uh among all this chaos and and uh yeah okay all right okay so this is hard okay um but i want to

uh uh bring up an idea that we learn in paradise which is there is the absolute will absolute will is just what you believe and who you are okay your absolute will who you are what you believe what your ideal state is and then there's the contingent will okay we learned this in paradise is contingent will which is what you choose to do okay an example is picarda because picarda is a just um person who is devoted to god right she is a princess and she's like i don't want to participate in this world of politics i want to go to a nunnery and devote myself to god that's the absolute will the contingent will are the choices you make in your life and so when her brother sent soldiers to kidnap her from the convent she did not resist she went with them okay so this is something to to keep in mind as

we continue to read dante there is a difference okay there's difference between what you believe and what you say and what you do okay so yes so he is very much concerned about the failure of the world at the same time don is obsessed with his fame and and this is not necessarily a contradiction and in life what we're trying to do is align the two right the alignment of the soul and that's hard to do okay all right all right so let's go let's go to the next um canto okay sorry sorry sorry before we begin i i want i want to like think about this so dante is obsessed with his shadow because it's what's bringing him all the attention okay and so he's slowing down he's looking for like wherever his shadow is okay and he gets really excited when he see when he sees his shadow it's almost like a drug

now okay and how does virgil feel about all this what is going in the mind of virgil as he's seeing this anyone yes i can't believe that beatrice sent me for this guy yeah that's right he's like what douchebag this guy is

what a douchebag okay what else uh yes yeah um maybe virgil is happy virgil is happy why because

um he finally corrupted yeah like i i told him to do things for everlasting fame now he's doing what i want so now and so now i control him yeah no no that's that's not how virgil thinks what is virgil's major emotion right now it's kind of frustration right like what a douchebag this guy is but what else what's the major emotion you would feel if you were virgil impatience right he's telling ver uh hurry up yes a little bit of jealousy i think jealousy right i think if i were a virgin i i'd be very jealous about this okay does that make sense okay all right so remember where we are where dante is now obsessed with his shadow and virgil's like oh my god what a douchebag and like he and so he so virgil wants to move as fast as possible right okay okay uh let's let's continue

to read canto seven when glad and gracious welcomings had been repeated three and four times then sordello drew himself back and asked but who are you before the spirits worthy of ascent to god had been directed to this mountain my bones were buried by octavian i'm virgil and i'm deprived of heaven for no fault other than my lack of faith this was the answer given by my guy

um we we know virgil is lying here what is false about what he just said so don't ask him who are you and i think i'm virgil and i'm deprived of heaven for no fault other than my lack of faith

where's the lie yes i'll deprive of heaven because of his lack of faith it's his active

ego that he chose to be okay so we know it's a lie okay and how do we know it's a lie but for a fact and how and how do we know we know it's a lie he may not know yes

because he could never have made it to heaven uh because he was born before uh mary gave birth to jesus so he was never gonna make it anyway he was always gonna end up in limbo

well that's what virgil believes but we know it's a lie why we know for a fact it's a lie also because he betrayed god through his work no no no no no i'm saying like we know for

fact it's a lie because of what evidence pagans and pagans in purgatory but how do we know that

kato do you understand we know this is a lie because we just saw kato in purgatory and kato we know for fact is a pagan and kato was like oh i'm a christian now no no he's like i'm still kato okay so we know this is a lie right does virgil know he's lying here we know it's a lie but does he know it's a lie no i'm saying does virgil know it's a lie right yes uh i i think he he don't he doesn't know it's a lie yes it's hard not to know that it's a lie because he met kato he

talked to him yeah right you know he's like you're the other me and why are you here i'm not like

hello we have this major encounter between kato and virgil it's a very embarrassing awkward encounter right so how could virgil not know he's lying that's exactly it kind of dissonance okay that's the idea here okay again what's amazing is kind of dissonance right what's amazing is that this is written in the 14th century and already dante knows about modern psychology right this is kind of dissonance

what's kind of dissonance quality so you hold on to your own worldview because you you can't let it

shatter you it's too much to you all right you guys understand so uh yeah did you want to add

to that yes so when you hear something that someone else else says that is different to your own perception of the world view you feel uncomfortable no no it's not you don't feel

you don't feel it no no you don't feel uncomfortable what do you do you reject it you understand okay so what's happened is virgil had this encounter with kato it was so traumatic for him that he just blocked it out he doesn't remember this encounter he doesn't remember kato uh did you want to say something

yeah i was uh just recently i looked at the definitions and etymological origins of a an illusion and a delusion an illusion is like a magic trick and your mind's like oh that's not real but you know it's not real and a delusion is when you accept it into your whole essence

right exactly okay so that's what this this is really interesting what's happening right where virgil goes to purgatory for the first time meets kato knows for a fact now that pagans are allowed access to purgatory and he's like screw this i don't and he forgets about it and it's like forever blocked from his memory okay so this reveals so much about his character and his motivations right all right

let's keep on going line 10 even like one who suddenly has seen something before him and then marveling dust and does not believe saying it is is not so did sordello seem and then he bent his brow returned to virgil humbly and clasped him where the lesser presence clasps he said a glory of the latins you through whom our tongue revealed this power you eternal honor of my native city what merit or what grace shows you to me if i deserve to hear your word then answer tell me if you're from hell and from what cloister through every circle of the sorry kingdom he answered him i journeyed here a power from heaven moved me and with that i come not for the having but not having done i lost the sight that you desire the sun that high sun i was laid in recognizing there's a place below that only shadows not torments have

a sign to sadness their lament is not an outcry but a sigh there i am with the infant innocence those whom the teeth of death had ceased before me they were set free from human sinfulness there i'm with those souls who were not clothed in the three holy virtues but who knew and followed after all the other virtues and if you know and you're able to would you point out the path that leads more quickly to the true entry point of purgatory

okay sorry so let's let's let's figure out this okay so sordello says oh my god you are him you are the virgil um and how and so like so deal a little humbles himself before uh virgil he basically bows down to virgil and how does virgil feel about this how does virgil feel about this bittersweet bittersweet again you're so generous um not bittersweet no just happy he's ecstatic okay he could be happier in his life why

why can't he be happier in his life yeah i mean he's gained he seems to have got a taste of the fame even though he's has no shadow and that his achievements in life seem to have raised him above the state and that the guy still really loves him even though he asks are you from hell and he goes yeah kind of but the guy's like oh my god it's still really lovely

what is virgil really pissed off about right now what is virgil not happy about right now

yeah uh he's pissed off for the dandy seems like dandy has gained more things over yes exactly right

he's pissed about dante like why is starting more famous here than i am and now he meets someone like oh you're more famous than dante and virgil's like oh yes i am okay and how do we know he is ecstatic let's let's let's read his speech okay and tell me what in his speech tells us he is ecstatic through every sorry uh sorry line 22 line 22.

through every circle of the sorry kingdom he answered him i journeyed here a power from heaven moved me and with that i come not for the having but not having done i lost the sight that you desire the sun that high sun i was laid in recognizing there's a place below that only shadows not torments have a sign to sadness their lament is not an outcry but aside there i am with the infant innocence those whom the teeth of death had ceased before they were set free from human sinfulness there i'm with those souls who were not left to die in the father's cradle i'm with those souls who were not left to die in the clothed in the three holy virtues but who knew and followed after all the other virtues okay so

he's ecstatic and we know because of his speech what is interesting about his speech here he has

analyzed the language yes the first point that jumps out is that he says he is in the other virtues so that he didn't have the three key ones but that he is very much exemplifying all the

others in his life yeah so if you're really happy you tend to like boast about yourself right it's like look how great i am yes okay that's that's one thing yes what else yeah when he talks

about his traveling through the circles he doesn't mention dante or the mission he just said it's the power of heaven he said i came up through the yes he becomes a focus all of his attention right

he forgets to say then before he was like okay well i'm helping guide dante through uh um how i'm purported but now it's just like me me me okay again that's if you're really ecstatic you just focus on yourself right what else and again this this is different from his other speeches okay uh yes well um i lost

the sight that you desired the sun that high sign the high sun i was late in recognizing so in a way he now does recognize the the christian god basically and he he also recognizes that he he's wrong or he was wrong

before no he's not that's not what he's doing here actually okay

yeah yes i think he's beautifying the places that he is at and he's trying to kind of photoshop it like lemme is not an outcry and i'm with the innocent and it's just too bad i died before you know jesus came

he's really responsible a lot of adjectives yeah he is exaggerating he's he's making he's he's making he's creating like this opulent full fat a language and that's different from his speeches before where he was very terse very short okay very brief and to the point now he's just like look um like trying to show off his poetry you

understand he's trying to impress yeah it's full of simile and metaphors and he's making himself

an angel almost boastful yeah wagging and he's trying to impress yes yeah one more thing or

well there are more yes he also mentioned that in hell they're full of shadows so this is him saying that the fact that dente has shadows behind him is not a great deal that is very clever

yes i didn't see that but that's exactly correct yes it's like why you guys like brat like like focus on his shadow there's shows everywhere in hell man right he's still pissed about dante exactly yes i thank you thank you for that yes you anyone anyone else okay and i yes anyone else yes i thought the infant innocence going to paradise oh no no no um it depends on the situation uh most infants go to limbo but there are some parents who pray for the infant and who do so many good deeds that their actions help the infants ascend to heaven okay okay so those are special cases um okay yeah i would also yes first of all he raised his hand yeah in a conversation until he found out thatся that he uses he uses i a lot right i and he also this is actually pretty long by the standards of virgil's speeches

okay so it just shows you how ecstatic he is that's funny somebody RECOGNIZES

HIM AND KNOWS HE'S BETTER THAN dante yes it takes up six stanzas yeah compared to all his short

turns versus yeah yeah he's usually very very uh turce yes keep on going in 40 he answered no fixed place has been a necessary point of appreciation no fixed place has been assigned to data before he got to give dante the dice one note it's called a

to us i'm free to range about and climb as far as i may go i'll be your guide but see now how the day declines by night we cannot climb and therefore it is best to find some pleasant place where we can rest here to the right our spirits set apart if you allow me i shall lead you to them and not without the light you'll come to know them how is that he was asked is it that he who tried to climb by night would be impeded by others or his own lack of power and good sordello as his finger traced along the ground said once the sun has set then look even this line cannot be crossed and not that anything except the dark of night prevents your climbing up it is the night itself that implicates your will once darkness falls one can indeed retreat below and wander aimlessly about the slopes

while the horizon has enclosed the day at which my lord as if in under in wonder said lead us then to there where as you say we may derive the light from this night's day okay so

it's a very particular particular rule to purgatory which is like once it's night you can't move anymore or you can't cross certain boundaries anymore okay why would they have this rule in purgatory you didn't have this in hell you don't have this in heaven why would you have it in purgatory uh yes you you then you okay

taking a real place like as it is on earth so you've been traveling on earth back then

in middle ages you can't okay so it's trying to imitate the real world as much as possible

uh what else i was gonna say something similar but i also think that other than imitating the real world if you're basically trying to purge your shadow so in in the mystic world of purgatory it's pretty difficult to know where you would try and chase if you were like trying to cleanse yourself if there there was no light at all to

be a reference okay okay okay all right let's let's be very simple about this okay in the day they're walking right and these souls are so excited that at night if they could they walk would walk as well and so they have this rule which is like at night you cannot proceed any further okay you cannot advance your progress this is very strange because you would think that a very very idea purgatory is to encourage you to expiate your sins as fast as possible so why would they have this rule um you cannot advance during the night yes

it's maybe a moment for people to self -reflect yes why like because you don't move then you're just thinking about where you are why you are there and then what's going on well if it's night and you can't move what are you doing you're talking to people imagining oh yeah dreaming

you're sleeping right when you sleep what happens you dream right you understand the and you're you're right the entire point of purgatory is to cause self -reflection and one way to to provoke self -reflection is just to have the guy sleep man you know because when you sleep you dream and your dreams reveal things to you that you couldn't know before does that make sense okay so the entire point of purgatory is to force self -reflection and that's what's about that and that's what makes it different from hell but there are different ways in which you can force self -reflection right so one way is who the discussion there but another way is for dreaming okay and what's another way to force self -reflection can you guys guess dreaming sleeping is a way to force self -reflection right talking about other people is another way but but there's also other ways and what are they

seeing someone else do the actions that you do yes that's right yes good what else worshiping praying yes exactly and they do worship and pray here yes what else yes abstinence from the

things so any kind of indulgence or process that you do just taking it away and seeing what is left

in the void of your life okay all right so yeah that's correct okay but but i want more common things okay so sleeping is one way and then another way is do people ever take a step back

in purgatory there is it is it a beeline one step in front of the other always progress because i self -reflect when i fail or i have a shortcoming sure sure yes so so

they will be forced to like stand still and and fail yes okay but but and what is the really common way in society that forces our self -reflection maybe walking to me maybe take a walk uh yes you learn from mistakes yes writing maybe writing yes what's causing all this like like reading or kind of go to class or something okay okay okay okay um we're gonna have time okay but art guys art a -r -t art does it make sense to you when you when you go to a museum and you see all these paintings when you hear great music when you watch a great movie it forces self -reflection on you right does it make sense so dreaming artwork okay and we'll see a lot of artwork in purgatory

all right uh let's keep on going line 64. we had not gone far off when I perceived that just as Valley's Hollow Mountains here in our world so that mountain there was hollowed that shade said it is there that we shall go to where the slope forms of itself a lap at that place will await the day's coming there was a slanting path now steep now flat it led us to a point beside the valley just where its bordering Edge had dropped by half gold and fine silver coquineal white lead and Indian like night highly polished bright fresh Emerald at fresh Emerald at the moment it is dampened if placed within that Valley all would be defeated by the grass and flowers colors just as the lesser gifts way to the greater and nature there not only was a painter but from the sweetness of a thousand odors she had derived an unknown mangled scent

upon the green grass and the flowers I saw seeded spirits singing salve Regina they were not visible from the outside okay and

also nature as well right you are yours of nature okay keep on going before the meager sun seeks out

its nest Manchuan, who led us here, do not ask me to guide you down among them. From this bank you'll be better able to make out the acts and features of them all than if you were to join them in the hollow. He who is seated highest with the look of one Tulex in what he undertook, whose mouth, although the rest sing, does not move, was Emperor Rudolf, one who could have healed the wounds that were the death of Italy, so that another later must restore her. His neighbor, whose appearance comforts him, governed the land in which are born the waters of Moldau, carries to the Elbe, and the Elbe to the sea, named Autocar. In swaddling bands he was more valiant than his son, the bearded Venceslas, who feeds on wantonness and ease. That small -nosed man, who seemed so close in counsel with his kindly friend, died in flight, deflowering the lily. So

see how he beats his breast there, and you see the other shade, who, as he sighs, would rest his cheek upon his palm as on a bed. Father and father -in -law of the pest of France, they know his life. It's filled its vice out of that knowledge grows, the grief that has pierced them. That other, who seems so robust and sings in time with him, who has a nose so manly, wore the cord of every virtue. And if the young man seated there behind him had only followed him as king, then valor might have been poured from vessel into vessel. One cannot say this of his other heirs. His kingdoms now belong to James and Frederick, but they do not possess. His best bequest. How seldom human worth ascends from branch to branch, and this is willed by him who grants that gift, that one may pray to him for it. My words suggest

the large -nosed one no less than they refer to Peter, singing with him, whose air brings Poully and Provence distress. The plant is lesser than its seed, just as the man whom Beatrice and Margaret wed is lesser than the husband Constance has. You see the king who let the simple life seed it alone, Henry of England, he has better fortune with his progeny. He who is seated lowest on the ground and looking up is William the Marquis. For him, both Alexandria and its war make Monferrato and Canovese mourn.

Okay, so these are monarchs, right? And again, they are anti -purgatory. They are waiting until they've made their penance and they're ready to climb purgatory, okay? All right, this is going to be Purgatory 8.

Canto 8. It was the hour that turned seafarers' longings home. The hour that makes their hearts grow tender. Upon the day they bid sweet friends farewell. The hour that pierces the new traveler with love when he has heard far off. The bell that seems to mourn the dying of the day. When I began to let my hearing fade and watch one of those souls who, having risen, had signaled with his hand for attention, he joined his palms and lifting them he fixed all his attention on the east, as if to say to God, I care for nothing else. Te lucis ante. And issued from his lips with such devotion and with notes so sweet that I was moved beyond my mind. And then the other spirits followed him, devoutly, gently, through all of that hymn, their eyes intent on the supernal spheres. Hear, reader, let your eyes look sharp at truth, for now the veil has grown so very thin, it is not difficult to pass within.

I saw that company of noble spirits, silent and looking upward, pale and humble, as of an expectation. And I saw, emerging and descending from the sky, the light of the sky, the light of the sky, the light of the sky, from above two angels bearing flaming swords, of which the blades were broken off without their tips. Their garments, just as green as newborn leaves, were agitated, fanned by their green wings and trailed behind them. And one angel came and stood somewhat above us, while the other descended on the opposite embankment, flanking that company of souls between them. My eyes made out their blond heads clearly, but my sight was dazzled by their faces, just like any sense bewildered by excess. Te lucis ante. And issued from his lips with such devotion and with notes so very thin, it is not difficult to pass within.

So I went up to Mary's bosom, said Sordello, to serve as custodians of the valley against the serpent that will soon appear. At this, not knowing where its path might be, frozen with fear, I turned around, pressing close to the trusty shoulders. And Sordello continued, let us now descend among the great shades in the valley. We shall speak with them, and seeing you, they will be pleased. I think that I had taken but three steps to go below when I saw one who watched attentively, trying to recognize me. The hour had now arrived when, when air grows dark, but not so dark that it deprived my eyes and his of what before they were denied. He moved toward me, and I advanced toward him. Noble Judge Nino, what delight was mine when I saw you were not among the damned.

Okay, all right, so one last question, and then we'll take a break, okay? So clearly, there are references to the Garden of Eden, because if you read Genesis, what happens is we get banished to the Garden of Eden, and there are two angels with flaming swords that now watch over the Garden of Eden to bar entry. Um, what are the two angels doing here? Did you guys spot that? What are the two angels doing? They have flaming swords. What are they doing?

They dance at the valley against the serpent.

Yeah, so what, what does that mean? They're protecting the mountain from the devil, right? From the snake. And what does that mean? What, what, what does that mean? Yes?

That even in self -reflection, the devil can come in, or that in, like, this is a place of art, of looking at great people of history for Dante, um, but he's being reminded that this is not a place safe from all evil, and that there's still temptation and trouble.

Sure, yes. That's right. The snake will always be there, okay? The snake is eternal. Yes? Um, okay, let's just say that you, you, We're all going to purgatory, okay? And we see these angels. What would our first fear be? Sorry, we'd be afraid, right? Because we think these angels, what are they doing here?

They're safeguarding purgatory from evil. So if I'm going through the gate, right, I see these angels, I'd be worried that they might stop me.

Yes, right? Because Genesis, the Bible told us that these angels are there to protect the Garden of Eden. Which means what now? Which means what? What's this thing? Why is there a snake here? Where's the snake trying to go?

Because we're in the Garden of Eden right now.

Okay, so the first idea is there is a Garden of Eden, and that's where the snake is trying to go, right? So the Garden of Eden is actually on top of Mount Purgatory, okay? But again, if you're a Christian, you're kind of surprised by all this. Why? Why would you be surprised to hear there are two angels guarding against a snake in Purgatory?

Yes? I don't know whether this is my Paradise Lost knowledge talking, but I thought that Satan comes into a snake who's in the Garden of Eden already. He doesn't have to make a journey through any other places. So you'd be confused that the snake has to do anything to get in there.

Right, so remember, we are now in the future, right? So what's happened is Adam and Eve were tempted by the snake, and they ate the fruit, and now they've been banished from, and they were banished from the Garden of Eden. And so why would this all be surprising for us?

Yes? Maybe because people just feel fear, you know, so they don't want to die, and they just want to leave. And this kind of fear and desire. If you're a Christian, yes.

After Jesus died for our sins, are we allowed to go back to the Garden of Eden?

We're allowed to go back now, guys. Okay? It's open now. The angels are there not to bar our entry. They're there to bar the snake from entry. We're allowed to go in now. Right? Were you taught this in Christian school? And it makes sense logically, right? If Jesus died for our sins, and we're not redeemed in the eyes of God, theoretically, we should be allowed back in the Garden of Eden. Right? And that's what Todd is saying here. If it is true that we're redeemed, then the Garden of Eden should be open, right? And who redeemed us from our sins? Not Jesus, Mary. And how do we know that?

Because Virgil tells us.

No, no, no, I'm saying in the text. How do we know that?

Mary's bosom.

The angels come from Mary's bosom, right? Mary redeemed us, and so they came from our heart to protect us as we enter the Garden of Eden. Does that make sense? This is the cosmology of Dante. If Mary redeemed us, if Mary redeemed us, then we're allowed to go back to the Garden of Eden. Okay? Alright. Any questions about this?

Yes? Is there anyone there in the Garden of Eden? Is one of the subtexts of this fear that Dante feels that he's trying to get there, and maybe the snake will be there when he gets there? Or is the assumption here that there's already people hanging out in the Garden of Eden?

Yes, so the Garden of Eden is at the very top of Mount Purgatory, okay? But our goal is not the Garden of Eden, right? Our goal is Heaven. So we're going to pass the Garden of Eden, but we're really trying to get to Heaven. But the point is, and this is really important, again, this is where Dante is optimistic. He's like, we've been redeemed already, therefore the Garden of Eden has been opened to us, and therefore we know we've been redeemed. Right? God has forgiven us for our original sin. Alright, any more questions? Yes?

So the Garden of Eden is earthly paradise, and people in Purgatory are concerned with earthly paradise.

That's right, that's right. Right. Okay, great. Okay, so let's take a break, and we'll come back at 1 o 'clock, okay? Okay, good afternoon, welcome back. So, I just received an email from Professor Bromwich, and he said you guys are lovely, which is a pretty high praise coming from him, okay? But he is right, you have improved a great deal, and I think that our discussion right now is very deep. If Dante were here, he would approve. He would be smiling at us. Okay, so congratulations on everyone. Okay, so any questions from this morning? Any issues from this morning? You would like to... Any questions? Yes?

I'm just a little bit confused about what would you say is the major point of the long canto where he lists all the kings, because he's such an economical poet. Yes. But there's just so many kings listed. I'm assuming that's to weigh down on the reader or something, but I'm not 100 % sure what that is. Yeah, you're absolutely right in that Dante does not waste words.

This is why this is poetry. It is the best economic poetry. So, again, this is all speculation, but what I think Dante is trying to achieve is one of totality, one of completion. Right? So he wants... So at his heart, he's democratic. So he's trying to speak to everyone. And he's trying to give people a sense of the unity of the world. And so he's trying to create good role models. And at this time in history, there are a lot of really bad kings. Right? And what he's trying to say is that even if you're a bad king, there is hope for you. Right? Because what's the most common thing to do? If you sin, you're like, well, I'm screwed anyway. So go for it, man. You know? I'm going to hell anyway. Who cares? I'm just going to enjoy my time on earth for the next 10 years, kill as many people as possible.

Then I'll burn in hell for eternity. You know, at least I'll die of a bang. Right? Because there's no hope for me. So at this time in history, people are very black and white about the way they perceive the world. And what Don is trying to say is, no, no, no, guys. That's not how it works. There's hope for everyone. You can be the total asshole for all of your life. But at the very last minute, you're like, you know what? I want to repent. And God will give you a chance. It may mean you are in purgatory for like the next million years, but there's still hope for you. Right? Does that make sense? But that's what I think is happening. But I'm sure there are other explanations. But thank you for that. Any more questions before we continue?

Yes? My last query is that if Virgil is so smart, why does he feel jealous, ever?

What do you mean by that?

Well, like, I was told from when I was young that jealousy is bad, so I just tried very hard for all of my life to try and not be jealous of other people. I thought that was like an obvious mission. So I thought that people who were very developed in their mind and soul would have left jealousy behind. So it strikes me as surprising that Virgil would feel jealous of anybody. But I can see how he would be in this scenario.

Okay, so that's a very interesting point you make. So there are many religious traditions that teach you that the ego is a source of sin. If you turn away from the ego, you move towards God. But Dali doesn't believe that. Dali believes that the ego is the source of our imagination. These emotions that we have, whether it be jealousy, anger, hatred, they're part of who we are. And they help develop our imagination with color and with nuance. So it's not about avoiding these emotions. It's coming to terms with these emotions through experience, through reflection. And it's a process of self -development. Okay? And this is why Divine Comedy is constructed the way it is. It's a journey. Right? Because remember, in Hell, Dante is just like the biggest asshole. Right? He tells the father of his rival, your son's burning in Hell. Right? That's just pure jealousy. Pure envy. But what will happen is that in Purgatory, he will move into a process of redemption and salvation.

Okay? So that's what Dante believes. Does that make sense? Great. Okay. Any more questions? All right. Let's continue.

Canto 8, verse 52. He moved toward me, and I advanced toward him. Noble Judge Nino, what delight was mine when I saw you were not among the damned. There were no gracious meeting we neglected before he asked me, When did you arrive across long seas beneath this mountainside? I told him, Oh, by way of the sad regions I came this morning. I'm still within the first life, although by this journeying I earned the other. When they heard my answers for death, Velo and Judge Nino just behind him drew back like people suddenly astonished. One turned to Virgil, and the other turned and called to one who sat there, Up, Corrado! Come see what God out of his grace has willed. Then when he turned to me, by that especial gratitude you owe to him who hides his primal aim so that no human mind may find the floor to it, when you return across the wide waves, ask my own Giovanna.

There where the pleas of innocence are answered to pray for me. I do not think her mother still loves me. She gave up her white veils, surely, poor woman, she will wish them back again. Through her one understands so easily how brief in woman is love's fire, when not rekindled frequently by eye or touch. The serpent that assigns the Milanese their camping place will not provide for her a tuum as fair as would Galora's rooster. So Nino spoke. His bearing bore the seal of that unswerving seal which, though it flames within the heart, maintains a sense of measure. My avid eyes were steadfast, staring at that portion of the sky where stars are lower, even as spoke when they approached the axle. And my guide, son, what are you staring at? And I replied, I'm watching those three torches with which the southern pole is all aflame. Then he

to me, the four bright stars you saw this morning now are low, beyond the pole, and where those four stars were, these three now are. Even as Virgil spoke, Sordello drew him to himself, drew him to himself, and said, I see there our adversary, he said. And then he pointed with his finger. So adversary is the name of Satan, right?

Satan literally means adversary in the Hebrew Bible. So again, it's referencing back to the Garden of Eden, and it's saying to us that we've redeemed ourselves, our adversary has been defeated. I keep on going.

Line 97. At the unguarded edge of that small valley there was a serpent similar, perhaps, to that which suffered Eve, the bitter food. Through grass and flowers the evil streak advanced. From time to time it turned its head and licked its back like any beast that preens and sleeks. I did not see, and therefore cannot say, just how the hawks of heaven made their move, but I indeed saw both of them in motion. Hearing the green wings cleave the air, the serpent fled, and the angels wheeled around as each of them flew upward, back to his high station. The shade who, when the judge had called, had drawn closer to him. Through all of that pack had not removed his eyes from me one moment. So may the lantern that leads you on high, discovering your will, the wax one needs, enough for reaching the enamel peak. That shade began. If you have heard true

tidings of Valdemarbera or the lands nearby, tell them to me, for there I once was mighty. Curado Malaspino was my name. I'm not the old Curado, but I am descended from him. To my own I bore that love that here is purified. I answered, I never visited your lands. But can there be a place in all of Europe where they're not celebrated? Such renown honors your house, acclaims your lords and lands, even when one has not yet to journey there. And so may I complete my climb. I swear to you, your honored house still claims the prize, the glory of the purse and of the sword. Custom and nature privilege it so that though the evil head contorts the world, your kin alone walk straight and shun the path of wickedness. And be sure of that. The sun will not have rested seven times within the bed that's covered and held fast by all the

rams four feet before this gracious opinion squarely nailed into your mind with stouter nails than others' talk provides if the divine decree has not been stayed.

Okay, so he lists a lot of people from his real life, right? And you can imagine what he's doing is he is in exile from Florence and he needs to make a living, right? So basically by including families that he knows from Florence into this divine company, he's also soliciting donations from them. Does that make sense? It's like Yale, you know, taking donations. Alright, let's keep on going.

Oh, he has a question.

Are we saying Dante was sponsored in a way?

He had patrons. That's right. But you could always ask for more. Okay.

Now she who shares the bed of old Tithonus, abandoning the arms of her sweet lover, grew white along the eastern balcony. The heavens facing her were glittering with gems set in the semblance of the chill animal that assails men with its tail. While night within the valley where we were had moved across two of the steps it climbs, and now the third step made night's wings incline, when I who bore something of Adam with me, feeling the need for sleep, lay down upon the grass where now all five of us were seated. At that hour closed to morning when the swallow begins her melancholy songs, perhaps in memory of her ancient sufferings, when free to wander farther from the flesh and less held fast by cares, our intellect's envisionings become almost divine. In dream I seemed to see an eagle poised with golden pinions in the sky, its wings were open, it was ready to swoop down.

And I seemed to be there where Ganymede deserted his own family when he was snatched up for the high consistory. Within myself I thought, this eagle may be used to hunting only here, its claws refused to carry upward any prey found elsewhere. Then it seemed to me that, wheeling slightly and terrible with lightning, it swooped, snatching me up to the fire's orbit. And there it seemed that he and I were burning, and this imagined conflagration scorched me so, I was compelled to break my sleep. Just like the wicking of Achilles when he started up, casting his eyes about him, not knowing where he was, after his mother had stolen him asleep away from Chiron and her arms had carried him to Skyros. The Isle of the Greeks would later make him leave. Such was my starting up, as soon as sleep had left my eyes and I went pale, as will a man who, terrified, turns cold as ice.

The only one beside me was my comfort. By now the sun was more than two hours high, it was the sea to which I turned my eyes. My lord said, have no fear, be confident for we're well along our way. Do not restrain, but give free rein to all your strength. You have already come to purgatory, see there the rampart wall enclosing it. See where that wall is breached, the point of entry. Before at dawn that ushers in the day when soul was sleeping in your body, on the flowers that adorn the ground below, a lady came, she said, I'm Lucia, let me take hold of him who is asleep, that I may help to speed him on his way. Sordello and the other noble spirits stayed there, and she took you, and once the day was bright she climbed, I following behind. And here she set you down,

but first her lovely eyes showed that open entryway to me, then she and sleep together took their leave. Just like a man in doubt who then grows sure, exchanging fear for confidence, once truth has been revealed to him, so was I changed. And when my guide had seen that I was free from hesitation, then he moved with me behind him up the rocks and toward the heights. Okay, alright,

so let's analyze this. This is a very important section, because this is the first time he has a dream. He'll actually have many dreams, because as he points out, dreams come from the divine, okay? The divine is giving you a message. And what happens is that he falls asleep, he has a dream of an eagle snatching him, and he wakes up startled, and Virgil says, don't worry, it was actually Lucia who came down from heaven to carry you to the gate of purgatory, okay? Before they were anti -purgatory, now they've reached the gate of purgatory, and now they will make their ascent. And so that's a plotline of the first half of this canto. Now, if I were Dante's writing teacher, okay, and he came to me and he showed me this, I would be like, Dante, you're lazy. Okay? It's like you're trying to move the plot along, and you need to get to the gate of purgatory really fast, so you just make something up.

I'm like, okay, an angel took me to the gate of purgatory, that's it. Okay, so C minus for you, Dante, which is basically a fail at Yale. Convince me I'm wrong. What would Dante say? Right? I'm reading this, I'm thinking like, this is lazy writing, man. You're skipping the plot, right? You don't know how to move the plot along, so you just, well, then we just got to purgatory because the angels took us. Convince me I'm wrong. How would Dante defend himself? He says, no, no, no, no, this is actually perfect. Yes?

With the divine plan or his cosmology, that you cannot enter purgatory without the love or support or the angel prayer of your family or friends, and that's how you get there. So it suits the theory.

That's right, okay. So one possibility is that Lucia and all the women, Rachel, Ruth, and Beatrice, are all praying for him. And so this is how he gets to the gate of purgatory, okay? That's one possibility. Yes?

So this whole journey, I don't want to say it's a dream, but it's like a vision of some sort. And so he's having a dream inside of a dream, so to speak. Could this be him willing it? Like, where there's a will, there's a way? So he dreams that he's carried, and then therefore he is carried?

I would say it's the opposite, right? Because Lucia literally carries him. Right? Lucia literally carries him all the way to the gate, which is a long way. And Virgil and Sardella have to walk. Anyone else? Want to try? Yes?

So this entire trip, like, down the hill and up the mountain purgatory is supposed to be an experience that the reader can actually participate in. So, like, if we're to be, like, truly experience what Dante has experienced, we need to, like, like, listen to him, like, listen to someone else reporting what happened during our dreams, so that we can feel the same sense of doubt and yeah, doubt towards what he actually dreamed. Right.

And I agree with that. But the problem is, like, if you were to do that, you would write about how arduous the journey is, right? You would write about your emotions during this journey. You wouldn't say, like, I had a dream and then I got to where I am. Right? So that's why I would give him a C - because he's being lazy here. I'm trying to get you to convince me I'm not, he doesn't, he deserves an A+. Yes?

I just think that for him to describe the arduous journey, any detail is a distraction and not true. Because, of course, he's creating the cosmology, but he would have to say there were some really tricky rocks, there were some animals, but what do these signify? I just think he doesn't want to confuse us with any detail that we'd read into before we get to the gates, because there's so much symbolic imagery. Even when he's trying to get through the gates, there's like three steps made out of different rock and stuff. And I just think any detail of the journey towards the gate would distract us from the symbolism past the gate.

So yesterday we talked about this, right? How the details add to the journey. How details make us part of the story. Yes?

Well, I don't know about Dante, but in life sometimes to get through purgatory, to get through life, you need help from other people. And sometimes these forms of help come at you without you necessarily being aware or conscious. I don't know if this is a message that it's trying to convey.

Okay. But it is conscious, because Virgil tells him what the dream is about. Yeah? Go ahead.

I would connect it back to prior to our one hour break, we were just told by Sordello that nobody can move ahead at night. But this is actually, you can move ahead at night. And so I would argue that you know, there's transcendence to this, and you can actually transcend whatever rules there are.

Right. Okay. I actually took this to I actually interpreted this as like, he was so tired, he slept through the day. And so Virgil sort of kept on walking, and he was asleep, so Lucius had to come and get him.

Okay. Yes? I had your same interpretation, but then there's a line, it's like the sun rose, and then

Yeah, so it's daytime, he's still asleep. Yeah. Right. Okay. Any other suggestions?

Yes? Is it possible that Dante is so happy because when people get so happy they can't remember so many things, and they just, maybe.

Okay. Alright, so we have to remember that ultimately this is a movie, okay? This is a journey, a movie, where the characters are real. What is Dante's state of mind right now? What does he really care about right now? What is he in love with right now? His shadow, okay? Okay, so he's in love with his shadow, so he's like walking really slowly, he's procrastinating, he's oversleeping, he's spending a lot of time with the other shades, like, offering autographs, okay? Beatrice is up there watching this, and what is she thinking right now? Yeah, she's kind of pissed right now, right? Why is she pissed? Yeah, she's like, what about me, man? Right? I only did you this favor because I thought you truly loved me and only loved me, and now you're in love with your own shadow. Alright? So if you're Beatrice, what are you gonna do?

This guy and just bring him to me? Closer?

No, but like, why not just go and punch the guy, you know? Curse the guy. Why are you like lifting the guy and carrying him to the gates of purgatory? Yes? Okay. Right, but I'm trying to figure out why not just, like, curse this guy, like, because Virgil would do that, right? Right?

Beatrice in heaven isn't gonna curse anybody, but, um, what is Saint Lucia, uh, Saint, uh, is that a clue?

Uh, Saint Lu, Saint Lucy. Saint Lucy. So, there's argument about who she is, but um, what most people believe is that she is someone who gave, who, um, became a Christian, and then when she was forced to get married, she killed herself rather than um, um, get married. And so she's like the opposite of Picardia. Yeah. Um, there's, there are lots of these saints in the church.

Yes? I think if you're coming from a mother or like a wife perspective, or girlfriend, because you love this guy so much, and you know that he has his faults and he's stupid sometimes, but right, but you still forgive him and you want to speed him alone, and so then you're like, I'm gonna send you help so that you just keep this part of temptation that's gonna make you fall, make you slow down. Yeah.

It's a nudge, right? And this nudge is gonna force Donny to think, why did this happen? Why did I have this dream, right? Because it's a dream. It's an eel coming to snatch you up. What does this dream signify? Right? So it's two things. It's one, it's like the dream, and Donny's forced to think about how to interpret this dream, and it's also Lucia coming down from heaven, um, herself, and carrying Dante. If you are Dante, what are you thinking right now? What are you thinking right now? Yes?

I'll probably feel a bit guilty, and then I'll just stick to my task?

No, you're not gonna feel guilty. What are you gonna feel? Yes? Maybe annoyed? Not annoyed. Lucky. No. If you're Dante, and this happens to you, what are you gonna feel? Ashamed. Uh, ashamed maybe, but also no, I mean like, like, yes?

But it's like, oh man, all my friends, now I don't get to see them.

No, I would feel fear. Why would I feel fear?

Was Matt, he's no longer going to get all the help from her, and then he'll just be left in the purgatory?

Uh, no, it's actually much more subtle than that. Can you try?

Um, because the story of Ganymede is kind of creepy to me, because he was like, kidnapped by the eagle. Yes. And he became the cupbearer so he's like, basically the slave in heaven.

Yeah, that's exactly right. The dream is making him afraid, right? Do you understand? The dream isn't like, oh wow, Lucia came to like, you know, take me to purgatory. I'm really, really happy. No, it's fear. The emotion in the dream is fear. He's afraid. Right? But I'm trying to figure out why he'd be afraid. Because Lucia came to help you out. Right? Why would he be, why would he be afraid? Do you guys know how girlfriends, do you know how girlfriends behave? Yes? Yeah. Oh my god. Guys, do you not have girlfriends, okay? Or a wife? Or a mother? Like, they're really pissed at you. What do they do?

Yes? Well, Beatrice thinks that Dante's kind of cheating on her, basically. Basically, yes. And she, and so they will, the angel will judge her maybe for it, so that's what he's afraid of. That he's gonna get judged based on that. Right, okay. So,

so I, like, this is hard, but this is a life lesson for our guys, okay? Truly, if you're a girlfriend, right, and like, you do something stupid, and she shouts at you, right, she hits you, you're good. Okay? But if she like, she buys you dinner, and she gives you flowers, you're really screwed. She's gonna kill you now. Okay? Life lesson for, for, for the guys in here. Alright? So, Dante is now terrified, right? You understand? He had this dream, which is like, ha, someone's pissed at you, Dante, right? This dream is an omen. It's a divine message. And then, Virgil says, Lucia came, and like, and then Virgil, and then Dante's like, Lucia's Beatrice's best friend, right? I'm now in a lot of trouble. Right? And he knows! It's because, for the past, you know, whatever, he's been in love with his own shadow. Okay? But, but you see how, how amazing this is, right?

Because it gives you complete insight into human psychology, and it's very real. Okay? Alright, let's keep, let's keep on going.

Verse 70. Reader, you can see clearly how I lived my matter. Do not wonder, therefore, if I have to call on more art to sustain it. Now we were drawing closer. We had reached the part from which, where first I had seen a breach, precisely like a gap that cleaves the wall. I now made out a gate, and there below it, three steps, their colors different, leading to it, and a custodian who had not yet spoken. And I looked more and more directly at him, and I saw him seated on the upper step, his face so radiant I could not bear it. And in his hand he held a naked sword, which so reflected rays toward us that I, time and again, tried to sustain that sight in vain. Speak out from there, what are you seeking? So he began to speak. Where's your escort? Take care lest you be harmed by climbing here. My master answered him.

But just before our lady came from heaven, and familiar with these things, told us, that's the gate. Go there, and may she speed you on your path of goodness. The gracious guardian of the gate began again. Come forward, therefore, to our stairs.

Okay, so Dante and Virgil are approaching the gates of Purgatory, and with each gate in Purgatory, there's been an angel guarding it. And this is very similar to hell, right? Where there are certain demons guarding certain passages in hell. And Virgil has to come forward and say, we've come here with a mission from heaven. And what's the difference in responses between the demons and the angels? The demons in hell and the angels here? What is the difference? Again, it's these subtle details that make divine company so imaginative, yes?

The demons usually say, why have you come? But the angels say, what do you want, or what are you looking for? The demons are usually angry or just are disturbed. What's the most common response when Virgil says that we have a mission from heaven?

What's the most common response from the demons? You guys remember? And again, this is what makes divine company so magical, because he pays attention to these details. They're silent, right? Okay? You don't know the response is, they're just silent. Whereas these angels are actually enthusiastic. Great! Sure, come in! Let me help you, okay? Alright, so again, there's attention to detail. Can you keep on going?

There we approached, and the first step was white marble, so polished and so clear that I was mirrored there as I appear in life. The second step, made out of crumbling rough, textured, scorched with cracks that ran across its length and width, was darker than deep purple. The third, resting above more than a thousand feet, massively appeared to me to be of porphyry, as flaming red as blood that spurts from veins. And on this upper step, God's angel, seated upon the threshold, which appeared to me to be of adamant, keep his feet planted. My guide, with much goodwill, had me ascend by way of these three steps and joining me. Do ask him humbly to unbolt the gate. I threw myself devoutly at his holy feet, asking him to open out of mercy, but first, I beat three times upon my breast. He traced seven peas with his sword's point, and said, When you have entered within, take care to wash away these wounds.

Okay, so the seven peas, the pea stands for peccata, which is Italian for sin, okay? So, the idea is that Donner has climbed seven terraces, which are the seven deadly sins, and he has to purge himself of these seven deadly sins. He's trying to purge himself, and the angel will come and take away a pea, okay? So he's tracking his progress for purgatory, okay? Keep on going.

Line 115. Ashes are dry earth that has just been quarried, with cheer one color with his rope, and from beneath that rope, he drew two keys. The one was made of gold, the other was of silver, first with the white, then with the yellow key. He plied the gate so as to satisfy me. Whenever one of these keys fails, not turning appropriately in the lock, he said to us, this gate of entry does not open. One is more precious, but the other needs much art and skill before it will unlock. That is the key that must undo the knot. These I received from Peter, and he taught me rather to err in opening than in keeping this portal shut, whenever sold, pray humbly. Then he pushed back the panels of the holy gate, saying, Enter, but I warn you, he who would not he who would look back returns again outside. And when the panels

of that sacred portal, which are of massive and resounding metal, turned in their hinges, then even Tarpeia, when good Metellus were removed from it, from which that rock was left impoverished, did not roar so nor show itself so stubborn. Hearing that gate resound, I turned attentive. I seemed to hear inside, in words that mingled with gentle music, Te Deum Laudamus. And what I heard gave me the very same impression one is used to getting when one hears a song accompanied by organ, and now the words are clear and now are lost.

Okay, so the angel is saying two things about this gate, okay? The first thing about this gate is that they're generous. They will let in more people than they actually need to. They want to give people opportunities and a chance, okay? Second thing is the moment you come in, don't look back. Go in with total faith and be resolute. The moment you lose your faith, the moment you become doubtful, then you'll be kicked out again, okay? We'll let anyone in, but once you come in, you have to be pretty harsh on yourself, okay? And those are the rules for purgatory. Which is very different from what the church teaches you at this time, which is that it's very hard to get in, but once you're in, you're good. It's the opposite, okay? So this is Purgatory 10.

Count to 10. When I had crossed the threshold of the gate that, since the soul's aberrant love would make the crooked way seem straight, is seldom used, I heard the gate resound, and hearing knew that it had shut. And if I had turned toward it, how could my fault have found a fit excuse? Our upward pathway ran between cracked rocks. They seemed to sway in one, then the other part, just like a wave that flees, then doubles back. Here we shall need some ingenuity, my guide warned me, as both of us draw near this side or that side where the rock wall veers. This made our steps so slow and hesitant that the declining moon had reached its bed to sink back into rest. Before we had made our way through the needle's eye, but when we were released from it in open space above a place at which the slope retreats, I was exhausted.

With the two of us uncertain of our way, we halted on a plateau lonier than desert paths. The distance from its edge, which forms the void, into the base of the steep slope, which climbs and climbs, would measure three times one man's body. And for as far as my sight took its flight, now to the left, now to the right -hand side, that terrace seemed to me equally wide. There we had yet to let our feet advance when I discovered that the bordering bank, less sheer than banks of other terraces, was of white marble, and adorned with carvings so accurate not only pericletous, but even nature there would feel defeated. The angel who reached earth with a decree of that peace, which for many years had been invoked with tears, the peace that opened heaven after long interdict, appeared before us, his gracious action carved with such precision. He did not seem to be a silent image.

One would have sworn that he was saying, Ave, for in that scene there was the effigy of one who turned the key that had unlocked the highest love. And in her stance there were impressed these words, Ecce Ancila Dei, precisely like a figure stamped in wax. Your mind must not attend to just one part, the gentle master said. He had me on the side of him where people have their heart. At this I turned my face, and saw beyond the form of Mary, on the side where stood the one who guided me, another story upon the rock. Therefore I moved past Virgil and drew close to it, so that the scene before me, my eyes, was more distinct. There carved in that same marble were the cart and oxen as they drew the sacred ark, which makes men now fear tasks not in their charge. They were shown in front, and all that group, divided into seven choirs, made two of my sons to speak.

One son said no, the other said yes, they do sing. Just so, about the incense smoke shown there, my nose and eyes contended too with yes and no. And there the humble psalmist went before the sacred vessel, dancing, lifting up his rope. He was both less and more than king. Facing that scene, and shown as at the window of a great palace, Michal watched, as would a woman full of scorn and suffering. To look more closely at another carving which I saw gleaming white beyond Michal, my feet moved past the point where I had stood. And there was the noble action of a Roman prince was presented, he whose worth had urged on Gregory to his great victory. I mean the emperor Trajan, and a poor widow was near his bridle, and he stood even as one in tears and sat in his wood.

Around him horsemen seemed to press and crowd, above their heads on golden banners eagles were represented moving in the wind. Among that crowd a miserable woman seemed to be saying, Lord, avenge me for the slaying of my son, my heart is broken. And he was answering, Wait now until I have returned. And she, as one in whom grief presses urgently, And Lord, if you do not return, and he, the one who will be in my place, will perform it for you. She, what good can others' goodness do for you if you neglect your own? He, be consoled, my duty shall be done before I go, so justice asks, so mercy makes me stay. This was the speech made visible by one within whose sight no thing is new. But we who lack its likeness here find novelty. While I took much delight in witnessing these effigies of true humility, dear to see because he was their maker.

The poet murmured, See the multitude advancing, though with slow steps on this side, they would direct us to the higher stairs. My eyes, which had been satisfied in seeking new sight, a thing for which they longed, did not delay in turning toward him. But I would not have you, reader, be deflected from your good resolve by hearing from me now how God would have us pay the debt we owe. Don't dwell upon the form of punishment. Consider what comes after that, at worst it cannot last beyond the final judgment. Master, I said, what I see moving toward us does not appear to me like people, but I can't tell what is there, my sight bewildered. And he to me, whatever makes them suffer their heavy torment bends them to the ground. At first I was unsure of what they were, but looking intently and let your eyes unravel what's beneath those stones, you can already see what penalty strikes each.

O Christians, arrogant, exhausted, wretched, whose intellects are sick and cannot see, who place your confidence in backward steps, do you not know that we are worms and born to form the angelic butterfly that soars without defenses to confront his judgment? Why does your mind presume to flight when you are still like the imperfect grub, the worm before it has attained its final form? Just as one sees a time as corbel for support of ceiling and or of roof, a figure with knees drawn up into its chest, and this oppressiveness, unreal, gives rise to real distress in him who watches it. Such was the state of those I saw when I looked hard. They were indeed bent down, some less, some more, according to the weights their backs now bore, and even he whose aspect showed more patience and tears appeared to say, I can no more. Okay,

alright,

so they are past the gates of purgatory, they're now inside purgatory proper, and what's the first thing that Dante sees? What's the first thing he sees? What's there awaiting him in purgatory, the first thing?

Excuse me? Rocks. Rocks. Yeah.

Right. And what are these rocks? What's inside these rocks? Carvings, okay? This is artwork. The first thing that Dante sees when he enters purgatory is artwork. Carvings of the rock that depict scenes of humility. Okay? These are just famous scenes. And what Dante does is that he turns these scenes into basically a movie, right? A story that he plays in his head. So, what he's trying to suggest here is, if you want to really redeem yourself, if you really want to cleanse yourself, what do you need first and foremost? What enables you to redeem yourself? What allows you to absolve yourself?

Reflection.

Yes? Humility.

Examples of humility to copy.

You need reflection, but what drives the reflection? Art. But why? Art. Imagination. Imagination, okay? That's what Dante's saying here. If you really want to start the process, you need imagination. So what I want to do now is, let's talk about Mona Lisa. Do you guys like the Mona Lisa? Okay. Or maybe something else. Do you guys prefer the Mona Lisa or another piece of art? Huh? The Last Supper? Okay, let's do both. Okay? Let's do both the Mona Lisa and Last Supper, okay? Alright, so now what I want to do is this. What Dante is suggesting is like the act of looking at art, okay? The act of interacting with art betters you as a person, okay? I want to figure out why. Alright, so you have the artwork, the painting, and it could be Mona Lisa or the Last Supper. Let's just do Last Supper. Yeah, let's just do Last Supper, okay? Alright. And I want to figure out why this is the case.

Why when you look at art, it changes you for the better. And it enhances your imagination. Okay? Let's try to figure this out. You go to the Louvre. Where's the Last Supper? The Last Supper is in... You've seen it, right? Right? So let's say you're there, right? And you have the room to yourself. And you're sitting down for a whole afternoon and you're looking at the Last Supper by yourself, okay? And what Donnie's saying is that when you do that, it changes you as a person. And you become a more virtuous person. I'm trying to figure out why that's the case. Alright? Has anyone actually done that? Has anyone just sat down in front of a painting for a whole afternoon and just looked at it? Okay? Well, tell me what's going on. Let's just list them. What is your mind doing as you're looking at the painting?

Yes?

Well, yeah, I used to try to keep looking down at that kind of painting and I don't know. I just feel so strange. I was just in the painting. I was in the painting. I was in the Jesus position or even try to imagine myself. If I were in the painting, I was standing on a table. What should I think?

So you participated in it, yes.

Okay, what else? Well, first I would try to figure out who the people are in the painting first, like so their background. Yeah, like just knowledge about them so I can better understand them and where they come from. Okay, so what you're trying to do is you're trying to fill in the story, right?

Does that make sense? There's a story inside the painting you're trying to fill it in. You're trying to figure out who they are, what they're doing. Okay? Yes?

I try and put myself in the shoes of the artist and ask why has he put a certain detail in the painting?

Okay, right, so analysis. You do analysis, technical analysis, yes? Sure, right? So you're switching perspectives, okay? Sure. What else? Yes? Good, yes, okay? You're trying to connect it to yourself. Connection. Good, yes, excellent. Yes?

You start looking at the colors and you see the picture as a whole, but you also start focusing on the details.

Yes, okay, right, okay. So you're trying to focus on the details. Details focus. Yes. And why would you do that?

Because you already see the whole picture so you want to see what each part of the picture is like.

Okay, right, so you're basically trying to world -build, okay? World -build. Okay, anyone else? Yes?

I will try to understand what the artist tried to convey

Okay, okay, the story, okay, the message. Yes? Anyone else?

Yes? I usually try to dissolve myself, a kind of disassociation in order to assimilate within the painting, trying to forget yourself, trying to forget yourself, and it's like how do you get moved by a painting where you have to disassociate into the painting?

Okay, that's a really interesting comment, okay? But I want you to break it down for us and try to literally explain what's going on.

So it's like constantly trying to ebb and flow between doing what being the viewer and being the artist, being the subject and being the physical object, and you're just trying to play back and forth between who am I and what is the painting and trying to bring them together.

Right, okay, so it's a dialogue, right? A dialogue assimilation, okay, yeah. Simulation, right? Would it be fair to say that when you do this you're also moving beyond time and space? Okay, so you're moving outside of time and space which creates unity, okay? Does that make sense, guys? Time and space create separation, but once you move out of time and space, it creates unity. Alright, thank you. Yes?

I like looking at portraits of people, so at Oxford, all our dining halls will have like all the famous alumni hanging or like and then they will be looking down on you as you're eating, and then you feel like you have this connection with them. They used to sit at these halls and tables and eat under the same candle light, and then you wonder if they are still somehow alive in heaven looking down on you and expecting you to do some great things as well, so that one day your pictures will be hanging up here.

That's a really good comment, but try to explain how this connection works. There's a connection, you're at Oxford, and all these great people, these portraits are all around you, and it looks, it seems as though they're staring at you from heaven. Explain how that could happen.

Because the pictures were positioned so high up on the ceilings, and then literally they're like looking down on you while you look up at them while you're eating, and like it feels like there's this eternal capsule of their souls in essence somewhere left in the painting, or their memories of this hall resonates with you.

Okay. Right, okay, so like awe and wonder, resonance, sure. Resonance. Okay. Um, so Benjamin Franklin, oh sorry, not Benjamin Franklin, Walter Benjamin, would have a phrase for it, he calls it aura. Okay? And his argument is this, okay, it's a very strange argument, okay, but like, like obviously we can't know with this, right? But in the real Last Supper, in the church in Florence, is it Florence? So you're sitting there, okay? Whenever you're sitting there, that painting is setting up your energy, right? So it has its own aura. It's alive. Okay? Right? And so, and that aura then becomes reflected in you as well, right? And so that's what Walter Benjamin would say. Every artwork has its own aura, meaning its own personality, developed over hundreds of years of audience participation. Okay? Any other, come on, you guys have all looked at artwork, right?

Yes? I guess just looking at the lines we just read, about resolving paradoxes, but also using your imagination to give life to the painting, because like the first carving he says, two senses were inside me, one sense said, no, they're not seen, like that's the realistic material, Dante, and the other sense, yes, they do sing. So I guess it's giving yourself over to the reality of the painting.

I don't know what to call that process. Well, I would say it's co -creation, right? Because the artist has created a reality with your imagination, you are making this reality much more vibrant, and you're changing the dynamic of this reality. So it's a co -creation process. Right? Yes? Sorry, sorry, yeah.

So this is before pictures or cell phones or anything like this, so you're capturing a moment of time, and there's like a duality going on here of like declaring yourself into the universe, or even narcissism, however you want to call that, but then also putting yourself out there to empathize and be empathized with. Right, okay.

So it's almost like a form of meditation, right? A meditation that creates a sort of mystical experience, mystical connection. Does that make sense, guys? Right?

When you look at a painting, yes? So when I went to Florence and to one of the museums there, I went with a friend and I just thought, when I started looking at the paintings, I, we just started to like debate about the paintings. We've looked from different perspectives what the artist was trying to convey. And we like, we really went deep and we kind of that's really how I started to understand the picture more through debates, through listening to someone else's perspective as well.

Yeah, but what's interesting is what the painting has done is enhance your individuality. And so when you're engaging in debate, you're expressing your individuality. Right? But the main point is first of all, your individuality was activated. Right? And that's why everyone who looks at a painting is going to have a different interpretation because we're all unique individuals. Okay? So it really activates your individuality. Good. Okay, anyone else? Yes?

I think this is why the Catholic Church will always have the stained glass window with a lot of stories and the whole point is that most of the time you are illiterate coming into the church and then all you can do is look at pictures and then the pictures can kind of wash away the sin in a way. Right? Like art kind of purifies you. Plus it makes you bow in humility towards the beauty of God. Like the minute you enter this hall of pictures and light shining through the window shining on you does make you feel elevated in the sense of you know you go without the organ you can feel the organ. So it's a very spiritual experience. Right.

Can we go to the Mona Lisa please? Who's actually seen the Mona Lisa? In real life. Alright. Okay. What is unique about the Mona Lisa? Only the Mona Lisa does this. Can you tell us?

Probably talking about the fact that wherever you are in the room she looks at you.

It's really weird. Do you guys like experience it? Yeah. When you walk around her eyes follow you. They track you. It's really weird. Right?

You really feel it because like wherever you are in the room the aura is here. And you can just like turn your back and then look back she's still here. You can't move away from the energy of this. It's really weird.

I've never been but like you know I've read stories.

Yes? Not just that but there's a song by Nat King Cole the singer. He sings a song called the Mona Lisa. Yes. Where he says is your smile to tempt a lover or is it just another work of art you're putting on your face so when you're in front of her it's very about co -creation because it's your inner feeling in that moment defines what you read her smile as because it's such an elusive smile and it's amazing standing in front of it because sometimes she's upset with you. Sometimes she's like Beatrice like saying come on you need to rise up and then sometimes she's saying wow it's okay you're a human being. Right.

It's like she's alive. Right. Sorry. Did you, your experience with the Mona Lisa. Can you talk about it?

It's really you know really hard to actually look carefully at the Mona Lisa because there are so many people just you know standing in front of you.

I understand that yes.

And I feel the energy. Yeah I feel the energy but

But you felt the energy right?

Yeah I feel the energy.

Yeah that's the aura. Yes?

I guess I wanted to expand on these ideas then would art would art show you what is possible and therefore expand your imagination. Yes that's right.

That's right. You're forced to expand your imagination. In order to have all these feelings. Right? And the more feelings you have the more your imagination expands. Yes exactly. Any other? Yes?

Yeah because I've heard that Mona Lisa's hands is not the woman's hands. It must be baby's infant's hands and the face is like a man is not a woman. So maybe it's Darfancy who just tried to portray himself. So and even the bone. I think it's kind of combination between the baby between a woman between a man. So it's kind of carnation or. Okay.

Yes? Just to add on to that about art. It's actually one of the reasons why me and my husband converted from Protestantism to Catholicism because in Protestant religion like you can only have the cross which is a symbol for Christ. There's no art. Very little music. Well there is Hillsong but that's it. So there was no mystical stuff. No incense. No. But Catholic church is like man full on. You know. Like art, music, incense. All this very materialistic almost you know like down to earth things that really incites like kind of all your senses to feel God. And then with Protestantism it's all abstract ideas, symbols, theories, concepts that's very soul or spirit. But Catholicism it's very bodily. It's very female -ly. It's very woman -ly. It's very art -ly or musical. And that kind of has a connection to your soul or your body like in a way your senses awakes your soul or spirit to feel closer to God.

So this concreteness.

Great. Okay. So we've established what art is and what the impact of art is on you. But now we want to figure out why the imagination, expanding the imagination would necessarily make you a more virtuous person. Right? That doesn't actually connect. Okay. We know art expands your imagination but why would that make you a much more virtuous person ready for catharsis, ready for purgatory? Why would the first step to self -salvation or redemption be art? Why?

Yes? Can it create consciousness about your emotions? Because like when you see art then you feel something and then you think about it why am I feeling this?

Yeah. Okay. So let's go over this. One is the emotions. Okay. The entire point of art really okay is to like shock your emotions to the forefront. Right? So your emotions are now like alive and you actually feel them much more closely. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Anyone else? So that's the first one. Okay. Art will shock you and then your emotions come to the forefront. Right? Then what happens?

Yes? Well to add to that point it strengthens your empathy for especially the artist obviously who tries to express his own emotions and then you can start to emphasize with his emotions and then that's how you expand your imagination because you can put yourself into his shoes and feel as though you are him. Yeah. Exactly. Okay.

So imagine this. Okay. Your emotions are being shocked. Right? They're in jolt. They're in motion now and what the artwork does is refocus your emotions in order to empathize with the painting. Right? So it's reordering your emotional state. Okay. Does that make sense? Alright. And obviously it makes you more virtuous. But why?

Yes? I guess my first practical answer would be you realize that acting virtuously is what creates a universe where imagination can flourish and come into being. So the virtues are designed so agents in a universe act so that everybody can imagine more and there can be more in the universe.

Okay. That's true. But I want to go into the technical details of how this happens. What you say is abstractly true but I want to know how concretely it happens. Yes?

A word that comes to mind is dissociation and then the ability to put your center away from yourself and I guess it comes back to empathizing with the artist's emotions empathizing with the technique that he uses, the process, his story, everything. Being able to think outside of yourself.

Okay. Yes? Love with the artist and you become thankful to him for creating this. Sure. But I'm saying what does that? It's like love. So basically there's a relation between you and the art and so you and the artist and then thanks to this you become thankful to this. Yes. That's the end.

First of all, your emotions are forced into motion. Then your emotions become more focused on the artwork and then there's a step and then at the end you have a sense of gratitude to the artist. You have a sense of connection to the artist. But what's the missing step? What focuses your emotions? Self -reflection. What is art?

It forces you away from the material and you think about more abstract.

You guys are thinking too hard about this. What is art? Why do we watch art?

Yes? I guess fundamentally it's proof that other minds exist. It's against solipsism.

What draws you to the art? Beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beauty, do you understand? You see how this works? The beauty shocks your emotions. It's like seeing a beautiful woman on the street. You're like, oh my god I need to meet her. Your emotions are shocked into place. The beauty then focuses these emotions and then orders the emotions into something that is virtuous. But why would beauty be virtuous?

What's the relation between beauty and virtue, yes? Because on the surface of beauty and after the surface of beauty and in the depths of artwork is love. So eventually the greatest artwork eventually has to be the most associative and the most associative power I think is love.

Yes, that's right. Beauty will lead you to love. But what is it about beauty that allows you to love, yes?

I think because beauty as a construct has formulas in a way, like we talk about geometry, numerology, and all these essence, just the same way you see math and science reflect the beauty of the design or whatever divinity reflects in it. And so the moment you see beauty it kind of makes you think about the smart designer who has designed these things.

Yes, okay, yes? Maybe because of curving, because you can see women, they've got curving waves, they've got shape, basically like up and down.

So there are a number of principles to beauty, right? There's symmetry, there's the pi principle, right? Yes?

Yes, so I'm a member of the Cormac McCarthy Society and he has this line beauty and truth are one. Yes, that's right. Exactly. The key is the word you just said, symmetry. In all great art that's symmetrical when you see a beautiful man or woman there's symmetry in their face. How this correlates to truth is, we don't just say I'm wearing a gray shirt, that's not truth, that's just a fact. If I say the Vietnam War started because of XYZ, that's not the truth because I need to know what happened right before it and what happened right before that and what happened on the moon and what happened a thousand years before. And the reason that we can't get to truth or no journalist can get to truth is because you can't write everything. But there was is one entity that can write everything and know all and that's God. Yes.

And so beauty and truth are one. Exactly, okay?

So you guys see how this works, right? The beauty, there's a mathematical principles behind the beauty including symmetry all that and that takes you into the mind of God. The very center of God. And then that becomes truth and that's what allows you to love. You understand? Okay? So great artwork gives you access into the very mind of God allows you to connect with the universe and that's what makes you virtuous. Okay? It activates the love inside of you. Alright?

Is that not a very platonic view? Like Plato really thought about mathematics and its connection to God. Yes. But he still, but what I don't understand is that he still denied art as a form of God or like an expression of God. Right? Okay.

That's a really good question. Okay? So it is true that for Plato mathematics is the mind of God. It's also true that if Plato were to see the Mona Lisa he'd be horrified. Why would he be horrified? Do you guys know why? Yes?

Because it's just a falsity. It's like just an illusion. It's a shadow. It's being praised as form

Right. It's a shadow. And so for Plato, what to really access the mind of God is you have to avoid the beauty and just focus on mathematics. You understand? For him, it's not beauty gives you access to mathematics it's beauty distracts you from the mathematics to just focus on the mathematics. Okay? Don't look at the painting just look at the mathematics behind the painting and that's what gives you access to God. But Plato's wrong. Okay? Just because he's Plato doesn't mean he's right all the time. Does that make sense? Okay. Yes?

Do you personally think maybe that's why some mathematicians go crazy? They're getting I agree. Yeah. Can you explain that? They're getting too close to God? Or...

No, I think it's because they're too far away from God. Yeah, I think it's because they create the one reality and they've lost connection to the real. And that's why, you know, like the best mathematicians, they do their best math at maybe around 20 to 30 that age group, and then afterwards they go insane. Okay? And it's no different from, I would say computer programmers, if that makes any sense. Like, once you create your own reality and you try to inhabit this reality and you lose your connection to the divine through beauty and through truth and through love, you're gonna go crazy. Okay? And yes?

But how does that looking at the painting make people a more virtuous person? Okay.

So the process is this, okay? The beauty of the painting draws you. It compels you to look at it forever. Okay? You lose a sense of time and space. You just focus on it. You become one with the painting. In this process, what happens is your emotions become jolted. They become out of place. Okay? What it basically means is that your worldview is evolving. And through this process, then your emotions become rearranged in a new worldview that focuses on the painting. Okay? And the painting, once you look more at it, you access truth. Why? Because beauty and truth are one if it's God. Right? So you're giving access into the mind of God. And then that, because you know like, God is love, that forces your emotions to be rearranged in a way that allows for more love, which is more virtue. Does that make sense? Okay.

Yes? I have a question just on about what you personally feel. So there's a fractal called the Mandelbrot set. Okay. Which maybe it'd be good if we saw a picture of it. Sure. Let's sign up. And it's basically a small, very short formula, which lists points to do with primes and and you'll see it. I've been obsessed with these and they move me so much from when I was a very, very small child that you can zoom in with infinite complexity. Do you think this is more beautiful than any human art? Because it's literally the art contained within mathematics.

Yes?

At Peking University and when he saw these images, he's also a computer programmer. He got the Olympics into computer programming. But he said that it is what that moves him to God as a middle schooler. Because the minute he saw the signs and the design and the numerology, the symmetry, the golden ratio, and all of these, is that you cannot study science without knowing logos. Without understanding all these designs. So that's how he moved from atheism to religion.

But let me ask you this question. Would you rather spend like 10 years looking at the Mona Lisa or 10 years looking at the Mandelbrot set?

You can zoom in the Mandelbrot set forever and it's never the same. You can zoom in and it changes forever and ever and ever and ever.

But what do you feel emotionally when you look at the Mandelbrot set? Not like a human being.

What do you mean by that? When I want to feel like a human being, the Mona Lisa and things, they really do it for me. But then there's some kind of transcendental feeling when your individuality leaves you and you're just trying to be with the mind of God or whatever you think that is. Right. I understand.

And if you do it for a long, long time, that might be problematic. Yeah, I think definitely

10 years Mona Lisa is better. She's a bit of company.

I would think so, yes. I would think so. Alright. Good. Let's continue, guys. Alright. Let's go to count to 11. So we are now in the first terrace which is to purge you of pride. So you have to learn humility in this terrace. Let's read, okay?

Our Father, you who dwell within the heavens but are not circumscribed by them out of your greater love for your first works above, praise be your name and your omnipotence by every creature just as it is seemly to offer thanks to your sweet affluence. Your kingdom's peace come unto us for if it does not come, then though we summon all our force, we cannot reach it of ourselves. Just as your angels as they sing Hosanna offer their wills to you a sacrifice, so may men offer up their wills to you. Give unto us this day the daily manna without which he who labors most to move ahead through this harsh wilderness holds back. Even as we forgive all who have done us injury, may you, Benevolent, forgive and do not judge us by our worth. Try not our strength so easily subdued against the ancient foe but set it free from him who goads it to perversity.

This last request we now address to you, dear Lord, not for ourselves who have no need but for the ones who we have left behind. Beseeching thus good penitence for us and for themselves, though shape moved on beneath their weights like those we sometimes bear in dreams, each in his own degree of suffering, but all exhausted, circling the first terrace, purging themselves of this world's scoriae.

Okay, so again, these are people with pride and so they're given weights and they have to move very slowly on this terrace and they they're being burdened by these weights and this is meant to relieve them of their pride and then they will have learned humility. How is this different from hell? What's the difference? Yes. Okay. I don't understand. If you were in hell, it'd be the same thing.

Right? Well they, but they want to do it. Like they know why they do it. They understand what they do. It's the people in hell who are punished. I don't think they're like, I mean they know they're guilty, but they don't think that it's fair that they're being punished.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Anyone else?

They are receiving this punishment in the hope that one day they will reach paradise and then they know that they did something wrong and they're kind of like punishing themselves physically, but then they still have hope that one day they'll make it into like upper tiers or like make it to heaven. Yes.

Okay. Exactly. But I don't understand why the people in hell can't be like, you know what? You just do this for 10,000 years and then we'll send you to purgatory. It's always like no, in hell it's for all of eternity. What, what's the logic of this?

Maybe unlike those in hell, they did not do deeds that puncture the fabric of society. And so discord or create societal ills that they would not be doing this forever? Yeah, we don't know that, right?

Because the condition for being in purgatory is that one, you repent and second is that people pray for you. Right? It doesn't say there are certain crimes that prevent you from going to purgatory. So again, this is a question for us where it seems as though the punishment is the same, so if they're doing the same punishment, could you have a system where in hell, if you do this for 10,000 years, you're given access to purgatory? Why not do that? Yes?

Because even the promise of 10,000 years would not give you a growth mindset. So I think in this scene, they're just singing themselves into the growth mindset. So the actuality of what they're doing is purifying them. And so that if you're in hell, even if you knew that by doing this for 10,000 years, you might make it out, it wouldn't give you the growth mindset that would actually render you above hell. Yeah, but why?

I'm asking you why, right?

Why? Because you have to do it every second with no thought of the end. You can't do it as if there's a finish line. You have to just do it as if you're doing it forever. And the mindset that you have in every second is what counts. Okay,

so this is actually a really important question if you really understand Dante. Why are people in hell, and why are people in puritory? What's the difference? Yes?

So I'm seeing this as like an Aristotelian golden mean. And so the example I have, even though bravery is not something that'll get you into heaven, is the two extremes that Aristotle would see would be cowardice, but then also recklessness. Yes. And those would get you in this fictional hell. But there's a spectrum. And so the closer you get to bravery on either end of the extremes, then you're going to end up at a point which, I don't know why, you would end up, God would say, that's good enough that you get into puritory.