---
title: "What's worked in education in China? transcript"
description: "Source-synced transcript archive for What's worked in education in China?."
source_title: "What's worked in education in China?"
published_at: "2021-02-05"
source_class: "interview"
public_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript/"
markdown_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.md"
text_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.txt"
source_url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVm3OqDVIwY"
data_url: "https://jianglens.com/data/lens/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy.json"
---

# What's worked in education in China? transcript

- Source: [What's worked in education in China?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVm3OqDVIwY)
- Published: 2021-02-05, day precision
- Human transcript page: [/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript/](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript/)
- Interview page: [/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/)
- Transcript Markdown: [/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.md)
- Transcript text: [/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.txt](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy/transcript.txt)
- Interview JSON: [/data/lens/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy.json](https://jianglens.com/data/lens/interviews/interview-wvm3oqdviwy.json)

## Transcript

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hi everyone uh my name is vikas uh welcome to a very early and special edition of t4 tv uh today you know i i'm glad that a friend of mine has agreed to participate his name is uh jung jung is uh welcome welcome to this live stream jung but you know the the thing the thing about you and think about um you know you and i have been friends for a very long time um and you are my go -to person for education in china and so and so what i thought was you know you've been very helpful to me in the past about how i should be thinking about education in china and all the different facets to it so you've attended conferences with me you've spoken on panels uh you've written books uh you know you used to have a newspaper column if i'm not mistaken you're a researcher at harvard you yourself

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were a teacher um you know instantaneously and you'll see how much you have learned from this and everything emanates from that and so i wanted to use this opportunity just to speak to you about uh about exactly that right which is what is the status of education in china given that um there's a lot of there's a lot of um you know interest i think in what happens in your part of the world um given all the in the recent past you know beijing and Shanghai have shot up on the on the PISA rankings you know there's a lot of a lot of conversation about the use of technology in classrooms and some of the breakthroughs that are happening in China that we never hear about unless they're sensationalized in our media. And so I want to just pick your brains. But before we go into these deeper subjects, tell me, Jiang, in terms of

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if you could give us the contours of the education sector in China, you know, how big is it? How many schools? How many teachers? And just give us some interesting nuggets so that everyone can understand the diversity of the sector.

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Sure. So China has the world's largest public school system. It educates about 200 million children. And it's a very monolithic system. So you have schools around China are about the same. You have 50 kids in a class taught by one teacher, and a teacher will stay with a student throughout the school day. Because there's so much diversity, there's so much diversity, there's so many students. And because education resources are scarce in China, meaning there are not that many universities, we have a competitive college entrance examination, which every child has to take in order to get into college. And that's considered the fairest way to distribute scarce education resources. At the same time, as you can imagine, this creates a lot of pressure on kids to perform. So we have a very stressful school system. And just with ed tech, I would say that China has many advantages that has enabled China to become the world's most, the biggest ed tech market, but also the most lucrative.

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And I would say there are three distinct advantages. The first is that there's a cultural obsession with education. So parents are heavily invested in their child's education. We mean this financially, right? So parents will go into heavy debt to finance their child's education. We also mean it in terms of time and emotion as well. So parents will, every evening, they're going to go to school, they're going to go to school, they're going to spend their evenings helping their kids do homework. And when parents get together, all they talk about are their kids' education, their test scores and all of that. As you can imagine, this is very stressful. Second major advantage is that because there's an obsession with test scores, that's actually good for ed tech, right? Because it makes education into a solvable problem. If you think about education as well -being, ed tech really can solve that problem.

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If it's just about including test scores, then ed tech can solve that problem. And the third major advantage is that there's a communication app called WeChat that dominates the ed tech space in China. So rather than use three or four different apps, teachers and parents and students can communicate just using WeChat. They can communicate, they can live stream their teaching, they can send lesson plans over, they can do everything within WeChat. So that's basically a rough summary of the Chinese education context.

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And so, Jiang, you talk about so many schools and because of the high pressure kind of environment that you have and the expectations that are quite high when it comes to children's education in China, you say what you talk about and you touched on and we want to talk about more about is the use of learning technologies, also referred to as ed tech, there's quite a few success stories that come from China, but also on the same side of the coin are the failures, but which we don't necessarily hear about as much. And so let's take that in that order. So, you know, what would you say are the ed tech success stories from China?

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Right. Thanks. So I would say there are three major successes we see every day in China. The first in terms of parental engagement. So every classroom has an online WeChat community where parents talk amongst themselves on how to improve their child's learning. And if you think about it, these online communities, they create these instantaneous feedback loops, right? So if you're a parent and you have a question, the teacher responds right away or another parent responds right away. That increases focus, motivation and engagement. So that's one major success. Second success is in terms of teacher training. So urban teachers are responsible for mentoring rural teachers. And what they'll do is they'll send their lesson plans over, they'll live stream their teaching so that rural teachers can emulate the teaching. And then rural teachers themselves will teach a class themselves, live stream it and get instantaneous real time feedback from the urban teachers.

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And this is a way to scaffold rapid teaching improvement in poor areas. And the third area of success, and this is really a major area of success is in test preparation. So that students in smaller cities are able to access better education resources. They're able to get teachers to tutor them online. This is very lucrative for both teachers and for online providers. EdTech also has enabled students to do many test questions and get instantaneous feedback. And what we're finding is that it does improve test scores. So it's a lot better to do more test questions than it is to learn the material more deeply.

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So there's a, in this part of the world, it needs to be a little bit different. There's a lot of companies in the Middle East, you know, there's a swathe of companies in the EdTech sector that do fantastically well. So one, for example, we have the founder of a company called Pango on here, which is all to do with lesson planning and resource sharing for teachers. And they've built a community. In a similar way, what are the big EdTech businesses in China called and what is it that they're focused on?

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Right. So one example is VIPKID. In fact, most of the EdTech unicorns in the world are based in China. So one example is VIPKID. What they do is they connect Chinese students with English speakers in Western countries. And that's very popular. Parents love it. You know, learning English is a priority here in China. So VIPKID is an example of a success story. There's also something called Skrill AI, which you probably know. But Skrill AI, they do test prep and they're AI based. So students will go into these test centers after school and then they'll sit in front of a computer and then they'll do test questions. And based on the performance, the computer will then customize test questions for them. And Skrill AI has been extremely successful here in China. So I would say those are the two big EdTech success stories here so far.

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And when we talk about the flip side of the coin, you know, what are the two big EdTech success stories here so far? Well, one of the things that as a result of through the use of EdTech, we've now realized are some of its biggest failures. Tell us about that in terms of, I know that you are not necessarily a votary of the use of tech. So tell us a little bit as to what you think the failings are as a result of the use of tech in Chinese classrooms.

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Sure. So I would say the three big areas where EdTech has failed us is in terms of motivation, equity and creativity, right? So motivation is that to be great learners, students have to be interestingly motivated and what we're finding in China is that EdTech doesn't make students more interestingly motivated. In fact, it can often make them less motivated and I believe this is also true in other contexts as well, right? Because of Covid -19. Kids are learning at home and what we're finding is that the learning gap between interestingly motivated students and other students have greatly increased. So motivation is, is, is, is and it's, I think, it's super important for me. something that I think is true throughout the world secondly is equity so China has spent billions of dollars in providing rapid access to rural schools you know rural schools they lack good teachers I mean and the idea is that hey if

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we connect rural students with urban teachers then rural teachers then the learning outcomes of these rural kids will increase greatly but that's not the case what we find is that the emotional isolation is a bigger problem than lack of access to technology and the third big area is creativity so you know Chinese schools have spent a lot of money on smart boards on really the most advanced technology but it often makes teachers lazy because what you just can do is they can download a PPD a PowerPoint from online and then recite it in class so EdTech has been a double -edged sword for for schools and and you know I think the main takeaway is that you know EdTech does not remedy and amplifies so if you're a school that's struggling it makes you struggle a little more if your school that's thriving it makes you thrive even more and I think that what EdTech

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has taught us in China is the importance of providing emotional support to students on focusing on their well -being and making sure that the part of others has what they call many bird's eye view of their own learning

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loving and supportive community I mean but is that a common thing I mean from what our perception of Chinese education is and what you said earlier was this incessant focus on test prep and test score right right that lead to a caring community towards that child in the learner right okay so that's a good

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point right a lot of we do research is that um if you actually focus on children's well -being then you improve um test scores so let me give you give you some examples of this okay so um i've done some research in rural schools and i've been you know focused a lot on rural school transformation how do you make a low -performing school into a better performance school and the answer is not actually more technology the answer is more community so principals who've gone in and transformed schools have done certain things right first is they get parents more engaged this means visiting a parent's home and says listen i'm here i'm new here i have a lot to learn but i want to be your friend if you have any concerns about your child come see me it means helping teachers develop right so so every morning the principal will sit down with teachers and

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talk about lesson planning and then i'm in this class and they get a report of their success they ask questions and students and you know they will come and talk about these um lessons so any questions that you have uh please give them a poll and then this is what we call the gist of this um you know this is bad speech but it's about giving students a chance to learn and to have a meaningful conversation with their teacher to give them a chance to learn and to have a meaningful conversation with the teacher their students have a chance to share their experience with their teachers so uh that's a huge perspective but i think something that i've learned here at gmail is that a higher test scores and that's why there's so much money invested and that's why there's so much parental support behind edtech but the research tells us that it's actually the

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community support that leads to higher test scores i mean so jen i know that you and i have this discussion but but i want to just ask you this question because i think the viewers and the audience for this live stream may be interested is you know over the last few years like i said in my introduction obviously certain cities in china have done very well when it comes to pisa and there's this overwhelming view that chinese education is flying right in terms of just achievement um is that the case um so i think it's a complicated issue as you say there's a

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lot of diversity in china so um peace only takes a snapshot of certain regions of china shanghai is doing extremely well uh jiangsu zhejiang province beijing obviously these are the wealthiest provinces in the world and they're the most developed in the world and they're the most important provinces um in china um we also have to look at the history of chinese education right so um from 1949 to 1999 there's a heavy focus on equity issues in in china meaning that a lot of really well educated urban teachers were sent to world areas to to teach and that had that transformative effect on chinese education which led to massive dividends today so in 1999 only a quarter of chinese could read and write uh it was the priority of the government to make sure that everyone was literate so there was this massive campaign to send these urban teachers to these rural areas and um over

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50 years we've had this massive transformation in education so let me really explain why um this transformation happened we found that the gap between the rural areas and the urban areas it was not one of teacher quality it was actually one of mentality so so 1949 um that around that time there's a real fatalism that was destroying communities in these rural areas they didn't believe they could leave the countryside they believed that listen i'm a farmer my kids can be a farmer his his my grandchildren are going to be farmers so why study what was the point i mean if you go to the urban areas there's a real optimism about education like other education can transform life but what happened when you sent urban teachers to these rural communities is they brought their optimism with them and they believed in these kids and these kids found the motivation to work hard so let me

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tell you a story um that highlights this um i used to go to high school as you know tony university high school one of the best high schools in china my boss there one in june he actually grew up in the countryside during the cultural revolution he was a private school kid he was an astrophysicist he was probably a coward but he was a coloring book one of the best in the world he really loved drawing he loved drawing and he was very good at it but when he went to the art school and saw the students doing the like the painting he was a picturesque person he was like i just wanted to be a picture picture quickly so we would take the picture and then we did this thing and then the teacher would do it and they started to teach him by his thought processes and by his love of learning so

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that every one of these 50 kids every one of them got a PhD and these are kids who are children of farmers and they expect to be farmers but some guy a professor came in and reimagined this classroom of students into a community of scholars and he believed in them and he tutored them mentored them so that they all became

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professors so I remember a few years ago Jiang was that you know we used to look at the status of teachers in my last role that I had and you know we published a few reports around the status of teachers can you tell us in terms of where where it lies is there any truth to it that teachers are seen in the same regard as doctors or is it that they're seen in the same regard as librarians or more labor workers right and so tell us a little bit more as to what is the status of teachers in your last role? you know that question and who today becomes a teacher in China right so we've

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had massive changes in the teaching profession over these past you know 70 years but you know before 1999 it was really the best and brightest who went into the teaching profession China China's a socialist country everyone was paid the same you were a doctor you were a teacher you were a laborer you were a peasant you were paid exactly the same amount of money so the best and brightest the best students they went into teaching because they enjoyed school and they enjoyed sharing their teaching with with other other kids and because they were so bright they really made the Chinese school system into a very vibrant and creative school system I think this is something people don't really understand that before 1999 China was a very vibrant school system John Dewey experimental education holistic learning they were all major influences on Chinese education prior to 1999 with the advance of the market economy unfortunately the

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best and brightest went into finance rather than rather than into teaching and you can imagine this had a major impact on the overall quality of the teaching profession but at the end of the day teaching is still a highly respected profession teachers work extremely hard and I think a lot of it is due to the cultural obsession education here in in China parents are very deferential to teachers so teachers feel motivated to work hard and it becomes a virtuous feedback loop if you think about it right parents are differential to teachers teachers are motivated so they work harder so parents become more differential so I believe teachers are as highly respected as doctors here in China they work very hard I mean like you know I'm a teacher trainer I've worked with a lot of Chinese teachers what really impresses me is their passion for learning for self -improvement when I go teach when I

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go train them they're open to new ideas and and so that that's what's that

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that's one extreme I'm so gratifying and so you know most parts of the world Jiang have a have a teacher recruitment and retention crisis does the same apply to China so that's a great question I believe China has done

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an amazing job in terms of teacher retention rates so why is that China has a great system of teacher training right so you come into the system you have mentors every week you have one day of professional development and you as a teacher can see yourself develop over time you become better um there's a real focus on collaboration and on improvement and this community has um really um made teachers more motivated um and and so retention rate is actually quite high in china and i think this is a lesson that the rest of the world can learn don't focus on pay don't focus on status focus more on continuous learning and development because then the teachers will feel they're contributing to

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community and they feel a lot better about themselves so jiang i know that you also uh have some thoughts on what is called the third education revolution can you paint out what you think that is yeah the reason i say that is that i think we're still stuck in the first yeah yeah

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i agree so um the first educational revolution is really the building of a black school system right the idea that um students can go to school and not actually just stay on a farm and learn stuff um and this was brought up about because of because of course the industrial revolution the second education revolution is a bit of a meritocracy and this has really created the world we live in today right the idea that the best and brightest should go to the best universities and that's that's what's really come propel the knowledge economy and i think the third education revolution is to bring science democracy into education to make sure that your education on oxford education can be everyone can access um bachelor of education um so and i think that what what we need to do in order to bring about the third education revolution is to change education from an art into an

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art into a science right so i think that education today is like medicine in the in the 19th century it was very intuitive it was very and then you had a generation of scientists um who came into the medical profession said listen we need data we need evidence uh we need rigorous examination of what we know and what we we don't know and that's what about a revolution in medicine and i believe that by bringing science into it into education we can bring about the third education revolution and i believe that artificial intelligence can play a vital role in helping us bring science into education

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you'll understand my skepticism jung when i say to you that you know your your your your pitch that ai can transform education because of the collation of data and then the processing of data will will draw rancor around the world actually um and so and so how do you react to that because there is obviously what you you make a lot of assumptions in what you've said there or at least inferred um inferred um summation uh that you're trying to achieve or you know you're completely different you know when you think about

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um core essence of what you're doing at this time of day but you have to have a lot of assumptions assumptions. And we have a lot of beliefs. And we don't actually question these assumptions and beliefs. And you know, a lot of them are just slogans that are passed around like, well being, creativity, what does this actually mean from some problem from from from some perspective. And so I think it's really important that we as educators need to think very deeply about what we believe and ask ourselves is the science and evidence and data back up what we believe, to be honest with you, you know, you and I have been to a lot of education conferences, you and I will both note that these conferences are basically the same, it's really the same people saying the same things over and over. And I think a lot of it's because these assumptions are not being challenged.

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And so I think artificial intelligence, what it can do is provide real time data and evidence for us to question these assumptions. So let me give you an example of this. Okay, so what do we mean by evidence in education?

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Let me stop you. Let me stop you. Sorry, I can't ask you again. But does it not lead to the deep professionalization of teaching?

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Um, okay, that's a good question. If, if we, we as educators do not participate in the process, it can, in fact, lead to the replacement of teachers, right? I mean, if you just talk to a technology technologist, who has a very one sided perspective about what education means and does, basically, he's like, okay, well, let's just improve test scores, and parents will be happy, and they'll pay for this product, right? So all we have to do is improve test scores. So how do we improve test scores, we make kids do test runs every single day, and that will improve test scores over a short amount of time. And we know that to be true. In long term, this will create corrosive effects. And will stop a child's emotional development. And we know that, right. So the fear is that if we educators do not participate in this process of discussing the power of AI, in

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education, that technologists will come in and just replace teachers with robots, and we'll be stuck with this system of memorization and regurgitation. But if you actually look at the evidence, and I keep on saying about the evidence, teachers are irreplaceable components of education, okay? Teachers, again, we're this community of scholars that support each other, and motivate students to thrive. And you can, technology cannot replace that. So if we had a very serious discussion and examination of the proper role of teacher, then we will come to this conclusion. But unfortunately, right now, the education community is not having a serious discussion about about AI.

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And so, again, I just push on a little bit, but I think it's a bit more so in in in the West, in particular, I remember there was a BBC report that I read last year, about the use of facial recognition in, in classrooms in China. And, you know, all the issues to do with privacy. And so and so forth, obviously came to the fore, right. And we were aghast in many parts of the world as to this is what like happening in education in China. I mean, what is your comment on that?

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Yeah, so I think there are two things going on, right? There's technology, there's technology worship, and then there's some process, right? Technology worship is just like, we want facial recognition in the classroom, because it looks cool. Because parents are like, yes, let's do this, because we want greater modeling of our students, right? So the example you referred to is a school in Hangzhou, that was using facial recognition technology to track the focus and the concentration levels of students. And you know, if students were, were, you know, falling asleep, then the teachers would come and say, listen, you're falling asleep. And it was really to try to control the behavior of students, which I think is bad. Now, that's a technology worship. The setting process is really like, you know, let's let's think about what we're trying to achieve. Let's collect evidence and ask ourselves, are we trying to achieve this, right?

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So basically, if you use your systemic process, how it works is one, you, you say to yourself, listen, we're trying to increase motivation levels in the classroom, right? So you're going to increase motivation levels in the classroom, engagement levels, because that those this will lead to higher test scores, right? That's a hypothesis. Okay. And then you're like, okay, well, how do you increase motivation levels? Do you have more cameras in the classroom? Do you record what happens in the classroom? Or do you have a teacher be more engaging? Do you have a teacher prepare more interesting material? Right? So if you actually use a systemic process and combining technology, you get different conclusions. But because in China, unfortunately, we have a worship of edtech, without using some process to evaluate the effectiveness of edtech, we come to these silly scenarios where facial recognition technology is used in the classroom to monitor students rather than track engagement levels in the classroom.

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And so, Jiang, I want to move on to a set of questions to do with COVID and, and the closure of schools. And, you know, we know a lot about how, you know, entire school systems have come to a close, and are grappling with, with, with the pandemic. Tell me what happened in China with regards to schooling and education.

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Right. So, you know, the Chinese school system closed a lot earlier than the other school systems. And the impact wasn't as bad for students, right? So I know that in the West, there have been several mental health issues for students who have been, who've been stuck at home. You know, teenagers have killed themselves. It's like, you know, it's been pretty bad. We have had mental health issues here in China, but it's been contained. And a lot of it is that parents are engaged in the education process, right? So when kids were at home, they weren't doing homework by themselves. The mother, the father were there as well, helping the kids do the homework. It was this family that really supported, scaffolded the kids during this crisis. But, you know, I mean, again, if you just left kids alone, in front of a computer, then you would have a lot of issues. But of course, unfortunately,

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because of the family engagement in China, we didn't have a lot of these mental health issues.

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And so how long were schools closed?

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They were closed for a good two to three months. But now they're back. We're back in session. Yes. We are now in Chinese New Year. And we've had several COVID outbreaks in different regions in China. So they closed earlier. We might delay the opening of schools in the spring semester. But again, family engagement. And also, you know, a lot of the kids learn material outside the classroom, they go to cram schools. So, so I think people here aren't as worried about school closures as they would be in the West.

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And, Jiang, in terms of like, you know, we worry a lot about learning loss and catch up in your learning. And so how will how will they be approaching that in China?

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Yeah, that's a good question. Again, you know, what I what I've discovered in my research, what I've learned in tech is that it's really emotional support that scaffolds the learning, right. And this is true in China as well. So I'll give you an example of this where last year, because of COVID -19, because of school closures, the government announced that the college entrance examination, what we refer to refer to as a gaokao, would be delayed by one month. And this has never happened before in the past 30 years. I mean, China has been through many crisis, there was a major earthquake in China in 2008. Yeah. And they still have the gaokao. So the gaokao, it's a major event, it's a major cultural and social and economic event. And they delayed by one month. And the reason why was that students were reporting that they were less motivated to study in at home than in the classroom, they were less focused, they were less motivated.

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So that sort of classroom setting, where you're surrounded by peers, and you have a similar goal, you have a teacher, you have a mentor, motivating you on, encouraging you emotionally, I mean, it is vital to the learning process.

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Thank you for that, Jiang. And my last question, I suppose I want to ask you, and thank you so much for the time that you spent with us today, is, what do you think the three lessons the world can learn from education in China are? Education in China or education technology in China? Education in China, and you may include education technology, but just generally, what is it that you think we can learn from you?

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Okay, so lesson one is invest in your teachers, right? And that doesn't mean, give them more money. We have no, we have, we don't have that many examples where just paying teachers more will make them more motivated. It means providing them with support, right? So mentorship, professional development, and community, right? So make, make sure teachers feel that they're contributing to community in a positive way. So teacher investment, I think is key. That's lesson one. Lesson two is, be really clear about what you're trying to achieve in education. I think that what separates China from other contexts is Chinese parents, Chinese teachers are very clear about what they're trying to achieve in education. Now, it's, it's more test scores, it's higher test scores. And I think that's a bad thing. But I think having alignment, engagement, having parents involved in the process is, I think, key to a better learning outcomes. And the third, and I think most important lesson is to focus on equity issues.

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You know, from 1949 to 1999, China did that very well. It does it less well now, but it's still a major focus. And so what we're finding in education is that, you know, these rich kids, smart kids, they do well by themselves, they're interestingly motivated. And so what we're finding is that, you know, if you invest in family support, as a society, you have better outcomes. When you invest in the most marginalized communities, and the most marginalized children, it's just a better investment. And also, what happens if you do create equity is that your school system becomes more vibrant, and more creative. How do you make good teachers into great teachers, what you do is you send them into the most marginalized communities and force them to rethink pedagogy. So if you're teaching really good students, it's really easy to become complacent about your teaching.

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Because what if you say that the good students will automatically understand or the good students will be self motivated to learn material on their own. But if you're a good teacher, you go into a more impoverished community, where students are less motivated, and they have less, less learning strategies. And that forces you as teacher to think more deeply about what works and what doesn't work in a classroom. So I would say, these are the three lessons, right? Invest in teachers, make sure your teachers are happy and highly motivated. Second big lesson is, make sure the entire community is engaged. Parents, teachers are aligned on goals. And third is, focus on the most marginalized communities in your, in your system.

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And so there's a question that's come up from Gail Brown, which I've flashed onto the screen over here. It says, professional learning and professional learning communities are already commonplace. Do you think this learning beyond the classroom will support students in China to make better inferences and problem solve?

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Okay, so professional learning is commonplace. But I think it's done differently in, in China. And the reason why is the entire community is invested in professional learning. So principals, parents, they're all involved in the process, which provides a greater feedback loop. And I think that learning outside the classroom is key. I think that the world should be the classroom. I don't understand why schools are siloed off. And I think this is a major issue we face in China, where schools are too focused on tests, and they're translated from the critical community and from global issues.

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Great. You know, there's also a comment from a gentleman called Kevin from, I assume, India. He said, I'm sure it's really tempting to use cool tech as facial recognition for the sake of it. But indeed, being clear on the educational outcome first is important, because there might be a low tech way to solve it, right? For example, a breakout session. I think you also thought that.

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Yeah, I know. I know. He I mean, like, it's, he said it so, so well. But I mean, I was talking about how you want to focus on technology, where you focus on the same process, right? Because technology, yeah, it's really cool to use facial recognition technology. But if you actually use the same process to think about education, what you what you realize is you actually don't need technology to solve most problems. If you, if you care, if all you care about is engagement, you don't have to spend any money to solve this problem.

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Jiang, I owe you a huge thanks for for today's interview. I know I have learned a lot, as always, in our conversations. And I look forward to having you back at a future opportunity to discuss these various subjects in the developments of education in China. But for now, please, please take from the TV, T4 TV live community that we have learned a lot. And we look forward to your continued engagement. Thank you so much.

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It's been a pleasure. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Vikas. Bye bye. Bye bye.