--- title: "Creativity Is A Scientific Rebellion" description: "Jiang's education argument begins with a narrow definition and ends with a democratic dream. Creativity is not vibes, artiness, or brainstorming. It is the." source_title: "Professor Jiang on teaching for creativity, agency, and empowerment @PredictiveHistory" published_at: "2026-04-05" source_class: "interview" public_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/" markdown_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md" text_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.txt" transcript_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/" transcript_markdown_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.md" transcript_text_url: "https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.txt" data_url: "https://jianglens.com/data/lens/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.json" source_url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE" --- # Creativity Is A Scientific Rebellion > Jiang's education argument begins with a narrow definition and ends with a democratic dream. Creativity is not vibes, artiness, or brainstorming. It is the scientific process inside the classroom: evidence, experiment, mistake, feedback, and the courage to stop obeying authority. That is why Chinese schooling is so hard to change. The obstacle is not only bad pedagogy. It is a whole ecology of teacher prestige, parental fear, test addiction, and top-student narrowness. - Source: [Professor Jiang on teaching for creativity, agency, and empowerment @PredictiveHistory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE) - Published: 2026-04-05, day precision - Human interview page: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/) - Interview Markdown: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) - Interview text: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.txt](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.txt) - Transcript page: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/) - Transcript Markdown: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.md) - Transcript text: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.txt](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript.txt) - Interview JSON with transcript segments: [/data/lens/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.json](https://jianglens.com/data/lens/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.json) ## Thesis The interview's core claim is that Chinese education needs a scientific revolution of the classroom. Jiang does not reject Chinese schooling wholesale; he praises its respect for education, teacher study, collaborative planning, and intellectual seriousness. But he says the end goal is wrong. A system built for test scores trains students to memorize, avoid risk, protect face, and fear questions without standard answers. The alternative is not soft schooling. It is harder: principals teaching in the trenches, students reading real books, teachers giving precise non-judgmental feedback, and a culture where every student can access an elite education instead of becoming a narrow winner in meritocracy. ## Core Reading The hinge is Jiang's definition of creativity. Creativity means learning the scientific process and using it to solve problems. Once the definition is that exact, the school problem stops looking like a need for more colorful projects. It becomes a civilizational problem: truth, progress, individuality, evidence, experiment, curiosity, and anti-authority have to become classroom habits. A classroom that rewards obedience, quick results, memorized words, and fear of mistakes is not merely uncreative. It is anti-creative. Sources: [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004`; [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008`; [3:16 seg-0009](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0009) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=196s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0009`; [4:50 seg-0012](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0012) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0012` ## In This Interview - [01:13-05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=73s) - Scientific Process Against Obedience: Creativity is defined as problem-solving through scientific process, which immediately collides with authority, conformity, memorization, and face. - [05:18-12:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=317s) - Why Reform Meets Social Resistance: The opposition to creativity is not just a bad school habit; it is teacher status, parental zero-sum fear, civilizational continuity, and social risk. - [11:56-19:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s) - The Principal In The Trenches: Jiang's current method is to teach directly, gather classroom evidence, and let parents and students see that subtle changes make students thrive. - [17:57-20:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1077s) - Rigor Without Anxiety: The interview turns from learning to wellbeing: real challenge can make students happier, but only when discomfort is scaffolded rather than converted into stress. - [20:53-24:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1252s) - Meta-Learning Makes The Teacher Redundant: The pandemic exposed the limits of lecture delivery and pushed Jiang toward meta-learning: giving students tools to learn without dependency. - [24:55-33:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1494s) - What China Gets Right: Jiang refuses a simple anti-China reading: Chinese schools possess teacher respect, professional learning, collaboration, and research culture, but the assessment end goal corrupts them. - [33:05-36:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1985s) - The Danger Of The Best Student: The interview's sharpest critique of meritocracy is that top students may become narrow, reward-addicted, fragile, and lacking in empathy. - [36:49-42:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2208s) - Why Education Still Liberates: Jiang's critique of schooling is powered by his own story: trauma made learning hard, teachers noticed a spark, and education became a liberating force that should not be rationed by meritocracy. ## Quotable Evidence From This Reading These cards connect the compressed reading to exact source coordinates. Use the summary and related lens links as the interpretive map; use the transcript and video links when quoting or attributing claims to Jiang. 1. Core Reading Quote: "Creativity means learning the scientific process and using it to solve problems" Transcript: [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school); [Jiang Lens Atlas](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens.md) 2. Core Reading Quote: "not merely uncreative. It is anti-creative" Transcript: [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 3. Core Reading Quote: "truth, progress, individuality, evidence, experiment, curiosity, and anti-authority" Transcript: [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 4. Core Reading Quote: "Yeah, so I specialize in the teaching of creativity here in China to Chinese students. And I have a very specific and..." Transcript: [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004-chunk-001) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school); [Jiang Lens Atlas](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens.md) 5. Core Reading Quote: "I've been in China for the past 20 years, and I've been thinking very deeply about how to make the society more..." Transcript: [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008-chunk-001) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 6. Scientific Process Against Obedience: The interviewer begins with the obvious public word, creativity, and Jiang narrows it. Quote: "rational problem-solving" Transcript: [4:16 seg-0010](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0010) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=256s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=256s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0010` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) 7. Scientific Process Against Obedience: The interviewer begins with the obvious public word, creativity, and Jiang narrows it. Quote: "the world, has been interviewed by CNN and the BBC, and has written for the Wall Street Journal and the Chronicle of..." Transcript: [1:13 seg-0003](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0003-chunk-001) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=73s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=73s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0003` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) 8. Scientific Process Against Obedience: That definition lets him diagnose the Chinese classroom as an authority machine. Quote: "an authority machine" Transcript: [3:16 seg-0009](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0009) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=196s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=196s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0009` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 9. Scientific Process Against Obedience: Galileo supplies the deeper logic. Quote: "science anti-authority, individualist, and curious" Transcript: [4:50 seg-0012](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0012) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0012` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 10. Scientific Process Against Obedience: Galileo supplies the deeper logic. Quote: "Sure. I mean, the father of science, Galileo, right? I mean, his argument was that we don't have to listen to the..." Transcript: [4:50 seg-0012](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0012-chunk-001) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0012` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) Related lens: [Education As A Soul Game](https://jianglens.com/docs/lens/education-as-a-soul-game.md#scientific-creativity-rebels-against-authority-school) 11. Why Reform Meets Social Resistance: The interviewer pushes on the contradiction: China needs creative problem-solvers, but the underlying values of respect for authority, obedience, and results are themselves culturally embedded. Quote: "culturally and intellectually it is an ocean" Transcript: [5:52 seg-0014](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0014) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=352s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=352s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0014` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) 12. Why Reform Meets Social Resistance: The interviewer pushes on the contradiction: China needs creative problem-solvers, but the underlying values of respect for authority, obedience, and results are themselves culturally embedded. Quote: "And so what are the kinds of challenges that you come up against? Because what you're talking about is that China needs..." Transcript: [5:17 seg-0013](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0013-chunk-001) Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=317s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=317s) Source ref: `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0013` Episode reading: [/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.md) ## Reading ### Scientific Process Against Obedience Time: 01:13-05:17 Summary: Creativity is defined as problem-solving through scientific process, which immediately collides with authority, conformity, memorization, and face. The interviewer begins with the obvious public word, creativity, and Jiang narrows it. He is not talking first about artistic, musical, or athletic expression. In China, his primary concern is rational problem-solving. Creativity means that students can use scientific process to discover truth, test ideas, make mistakes, and revise. Sources: [1:13 seg-0003](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0003) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=73s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0003`; [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004`; [2:02 seg-0007](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0007) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=122s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0007`; [4:16 seg-0010](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0010) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=256s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0010` That definition lets him diagnose the Chinese classroom as an authority machine. Teachers control the room; students obey; outcomes matter more than process; English becomes word-list memorization instead of reading, writing, debate, and communication; mistakes are punished rather than used. The classroom does not just fail to produce creativity. It trains against the habits creativity requires. Sources: [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008`; [3:16 seg-0009](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0009) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=196s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0009` Galileo supplies the deeper logic. Science, in Jiang's telling, begins when people no longer have to rely on Church authority. Truth comes through experimentation, observation, logic, and evidence. That makes science anti-authority, individualist, and curious, which works against Chinese traditional culture and thinking. Sources: [4:50 seg-0012](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0012) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=290s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0012` ### Why Reform Meets Social Resistance Time: 05:18-12:54 Summary: The opposition to creativity is not just a bad school habit; it is teacher status, parental zero-sum fear, civilizational continuity, and social risk. The interviewer pushes on the contradiction: China needs creative problem-solvers, but the underlying values of respect for authority, obedience, and results are themselves culturally embedded. Jiang answers at civilizational scale. China looks like a landmass, but culturally and intellectually it is an ocean. People see skyscrapers and highways and think the culture has changed. Jiang says the deeper continuity, stability, and harmony remain, and that continuity can become anti-change. Sources: [5:17 seg-0013](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0013) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=317s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0013`; [5:52 seg-0014](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0014) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=352s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0014`; [6:45 seg-0015](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0015) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=405s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0015` Teachers resist because reform threatens status. Parents resist because education feels like a prisoner's dilemma: only a few children can win, so if the curriculum changes, everyone may lose. That is why there can be thirty or forty years of public demand for creativity and still little change in the classroom. Reform is blocked by the fear structure around the child. Sources: [8:39 seg-0019](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0019) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=519s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0019`; [8:57 seg-0020](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0020) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=537s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0020`; [9:56 seg-0021](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0021) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=596s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0021` Jiang's own strategy changed because he hit that wall. As a school leader designing new programs, he failed and learned from the backlash. Then he turned to teacher training, thinking that teachers had to become agents of change. But even changed teachers ran into social opposition embedded in their lives. That is why he returns to principal-level control: he needs a school where he can show evidence, not merely argue theory. Sources: [10:02 seg-0022](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0022) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=602s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0022`; [10:22 seg-0023](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0023) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=622s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0023`; [11:11 seg-0024](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0024) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=671s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0024`; [11:56 seg-0025](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0025) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0025` ### The Principal In The Trenches Time: 11:56-19:01 Summary: Jiang's current method is to teach directly, gather classroom evidence, and let parents and students see that subtle changes make students thrive. The current plan is not a memo. Jiang teaches. He invites parents and teachers to watch. He runs tests and gathers evidence. If parents can see that change works, they may become persuadable; if parents become persuadable, teachers may slowly follow. The reform path begins with proof in the room. Sources: [11:56 seg-0025](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0025) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0025`; [13:53 seg-0028](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0028) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=833s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0028` His English example is simple but decisive. Instead of memorizing word lists, students read books, act scenes, and write literary analysis. In only two weeks, he says, their minds blossom and open. They become happier, more confident, and more engaged when they become agents of their own learning. Sources: [11:56 seg-0025](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0025) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0025`; [12:54 seg-0026](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0026) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=774s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0026`; [18:09 seg-0036](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0036) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1089s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0036` The classroom mechanics are hard. Students are addicted to memorization because they are good at it. The teacher has to coax them into imagining ideas, speaking them aloud, and risking failure or loss of face. The room must be democratic, open, tolerant, and caring, but not vague. Jiang's difficult target is to be non-judgmental while giving precise feedback. Sources: [13:53 seg-0028](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0028) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=833s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0028`; [14:50 seg-0029](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0029) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=890s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0029`; [15:48 seg-0030](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0030) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=948s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0030` Leadership matters because talk is too easy. Jiang says the principal has to be the role model, the person inside the classroom doing the work so others can emulate. The open-door policy is not merely kindness. It is infrastructure for teacher courage: the leader has to make mistakes, own them, and remove the distance between school leader and teacher. Sources: [13:53 seg-0028](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0028) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=833s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0028`; [17:03 seg-0033](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0033) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1023s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0033`; [17:24 seg-0034](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0034) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1044s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0034` ### Rigor Without Anxiety Time: 17:57-20:53 Summary: The interview turns from learning to wellbeing: real challenge can make students happier, but only when discomfort is scaffolded rather than converted into stress. The surprise is not that students learn more English when they read difficult texts and answer difficult questions. Jiang expected that. The surprise is that parents report happier children. The students go home wanting to learn more. Challenge, properly held, does not crush them. It makes them more confident. Sources: [17:57 seg-0035](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0035) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1077s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0035`; [18:09 seg-0036](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0036) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1089s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0036`; [19:01 seg-0038](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0038) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1141s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0038` This is also where Jiang corrects his younger self. Earlier in his career, he says, he did not think enough about wellbeing, psychological profile, or teenage development. He was a robot in school, a good student without much emotional life. Experience as a father and teacher changed the model: discomfort can show thinking, but anxiety and stress are not productive. Sources: [19:17 seg-0039](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0039) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1157s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0039`; [20:10 seg-0040](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0040) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1210s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0040` The change is moral and economic at the same time. Before, he prioritized economic outcomes regardless of the cost. Now he sees wellbeing as key to strong economic outcomes. They are impossible to extricate. That matters because the interview is not making an anti-rigor argument. It is saying that a school system which harms the child also weakens the long-run outcome it claims to protect. Sources: [20:10 seg-0040](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0040) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1210s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0040` ### Meta-Learning Makes The Teacher Redundant Time: 20:53-24:55 Summary: The pandemic exposed the limits of lecture delivery and pushed Jiang toward meta-learning: giving students tools to learn without dependency. The pandemic clarified a structural problem. Jiang says China had little disruption because online learning reproduced the same chalk-and-talk model: the teacher talked for forty-five minutes offline, then talked online. That continuity is not a compliment. It means students were already learning too little, and then learned even less under lockdown. Sources: [20:52 seg-0041](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0041) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1252s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0041`; [21:08 seg-0042](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0042) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1268s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0042` The answer is meta-learning. Students need to learn how to learn: memory, goals, strategies, reading plot, reading psychological profile, and seeing character change. Jiang's desired endpoint is radical teacher humility. A year or two later, he wants students not to need him. His goal as a teacher is to make himself redundant. Sources: [22:07 seg-0043](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0043) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1327s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0043`; [22:53 seg-0044](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0044) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1373s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0044`; [23:00 seg-0045](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0045) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1380s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0045` That is why students enjoy the work. It gives them tools and a new pair of eyes: for the world, for themselves, for the text. Jiang calls this liberating because it shifts learning from dependency to agency. But he refuses the fantasy that one classroom can change China in a year or two. The classroom is field research for a blueprint future educators may use. Sources: [23:06 seg-0046](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0046) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1386s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0046`; [23:35 seg-0047](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0047) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1415s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0047`; [24:02 seg-0048](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0048) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1442s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0048` ### What China Gets Right Time: 24:55-33:55 Summary: Jiang refuses a simple anti-China reading: Chinese schools possess teacher respect, professional learning, collaboration, and research culture, but the assessment end goal corrupts them. When the interviewer raises PISA and China's high performance, Jiang does not retreat into dismissal. The world can learn from China. There is tremendous respect for education, an optimism that hard work through education can change life, and a social obsession with school that other countries lack. Sources: [25:47 seg-0050](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0050) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1547s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0050`; [26:36 seg-0051](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0051) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1596s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0051`; [26:40 seg-0052](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0052) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1600s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0052` Chinese teacher culture also carries something Jiang admires. Teachers spend large portions of their working time learning, planning, marking, observing, researching, presenting, and collaborating. Teaching is treated as an intellectual pursuit, not merely a job. Older teachers mentor younger teachers; departments share lesson planning; peer observation can produce frank critique without offense. Sources: [27:42 seg-0053](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0053) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1662s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0053`; [28:38 seg-0054](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0054) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1718s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0054`; [29:46 seg-0056](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0056) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1786s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0056`; [30:46 seg-0058](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0058) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1846s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0058`; [31:36 seg-0059](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0059) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1896s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0059` The distinction is the end goal. The professional culture can be strong while the assessment regime is wrong. If all anyone cares about is test scores, then collaboration, research, and hard work become servants of a narrow outcome. Jiang wants holistic assessment that encourages individuality, creativity, growth mindset, self-reflection, awareness of limitations, and courage. Sources: [31:44 seg-0060](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0060) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1904s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0060`; [32:10 seg-0061](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0061) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1930s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0061`; [32:45 seg-0062](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0062) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1965s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0062`; [33:05 seg-0063](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0063) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1985s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0063` ### The Danger Of The Best Student Time: 33:05-36:49 Summary: The interview's sharpest critique of meritocracy is that top students may become narrow, reward-addicted, fragile, and lacking in empathy. Jiang's most unsettling claim is that the best academic students can be more problematic than the worst students. The weak student knows he has limitations and may be open to advice. The top student has been rewarded for easy tasks, speed, praise, and staying inside the comfort zone. That success can become close-mindedness. Sources: [33:05 seg-0063](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0063) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1985s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0063`; [33:54 seg-0064](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0064) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2034s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0064` The test system is addictive like a video game. Students learn to memorize core information quickly and regurgitate it. Then an open-ended long-form question without a standardized answer can make them freak out or cry. The system makes them excellent at what it rewards and fragile outside it. Sources: [34:33 seg-0065](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0065) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2073s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0065`; [34:45 seg-0066](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0066) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2085s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0066`; [35:25 seg-0067](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0067) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2125s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0067` Evidence-based reasoning is the missing capacity. Jiang says Chinese students often never learn it, even at university, and the best students struggle when they go abroad. The problem is not only intellectual. It is moral and social: the best students may lack empathy because they interact mostly with people like themselves and do not like diversity and difference. Sources: [35:29 seg-0068](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0068) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2129s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0068`; [36:00 seg-0069](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0069) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2160s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0069`; [36:15 seg-0070](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0070) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2175s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0070`; [36:34 seg-0071](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0071) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2194s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0071` ### Why Education Still Liberates Time: 36:49-42:47 Summary: Jiang's critique of schooling is powered by his own story: trauma made learning hard, teachers noticed a spark, and education became a liberating force that should not be rationed by meritocracy. The interviewer notices the personal tension: if Jiang felt like a robot in school, why enter education? His answer begins with childhood injury. Born in China in 1976 and moved to Toronto at six or seven, he spent his first ten years of schooling unable to speak English well, stuttering, poor, teased, stressed, and traumatized. The trauma inhibited learning. Sources: [36:48 seg-0072](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0072) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2208s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0072`; [37:04 seg-0073](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0073) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2224s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0073` Then teachers noticed him. They found a spark in his eyes, encouraged him, and he began to read more books and take school seriously. That is why he calls education empowering and liberating. He does not believe this because school treated him gently. He believes it because education rescued something in him that school had nearly buried. Sources: [37:04 seg-0073](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0073) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2224s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0073`; [37:56 seg-0074](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0074) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2276s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0074` The final lightning-round details are not random. Judy Blume matters because she writes deep ideas in simple language, exactly the challenge Jiang faces with sixth-grade Chinese students. His wife matters because she helps his rational, narrow student self understand how ordinary people think. His next writing course matters because it turns evidence-based reasoning into practice: students will research, interview, survey, collect information, and write. Sources: [40:07 seg-0083](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0083) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2407s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0083`; [40:47 seg-0087](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0087) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2447s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0087`; [41:18 seg-0088](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0088) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2478s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0088`; [41:23 seg-0089](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0089) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2483s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0089` That is why the ending matters. Jiang names himself as a beneficiary of meritocracy: hard work, high IQ, good tests, Yale scholarship. Then he says his education career made him skeptical of meritocracy. The dream is not to select the best more efficiently. The dream is for every student to access an elite education. Sources: [42:04 seg-0091](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0091) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2524s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0091`; [42:42 seg-0092](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0092) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2562s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0092`; [42:46 seg-0093](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0093) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2566s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0093` ## Questions ### How do you define creativity in the work that you do? Jiang defines creativity as using the scientific process to solve problems, then builds the interview around why that is culturally difficult in Chinese classrooms. Jiang defines creativity as using the scientific process to solve problems, then builds the interview around why that is culturally difficult in Chinese classrooms. Sources: [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004`; [2:00 seg-0006](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0006) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=120s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0006`; [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008` Sources: [1:13 seg-0003](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0003) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=73s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0003`; [1:40 seg-0004](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0004) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=100s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0004`; [2:00 seg-0006](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0006) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=120s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0006`; [2:17 seg-0008](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0008) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=137s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0008` ### Where is the teacher's motivation to change their practice? Jiang says teachers often resist because change threatens status, while parents resist because education feels like a zero-sum game. Reform has to show that creativity can raise teacher prestige and benefit students. Jiang says teachers often resist because change threatens status, while parents resist because education feels like a zero-sum game. Reform has to show that creativity can raise teacher prestige and benefit students. Sources: [8:57 seg-0020](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0020) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=537s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0020`; [11:11 seg-0024](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0024) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=671s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0024`; [11:56 seg-0025](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0025) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0025` Sources: [8:39 seg-0019](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0019) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=519s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0019`; [8:57 seg-0020](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0020) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=537s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0020`; [11:11 seg-0024](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0024) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=671s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0024`; [11:56 seg-0025](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0025) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=716s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0025` ### Has any of your thinking changed due to the experience of the pandemic and schools and education? The pandemic clarified for Jiang that lecture delivery was already broken. Because online school reproduced offline teacher talk, it pushed him toward meta-learning, collaboration, and teaching students how to learn for themselves. The pandemic clarified for Jiang that lecture delivery was already broken. Because online school reproduced offline teacher talk, it pushed him toward meta-learning, collaboration, and teaching students how to learn for themselves. Sources: [21:08 seg-0042](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0042) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1268s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0042`; [22:07 seg-0043](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0043) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1327s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0043`; [22:53 seg-0044](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0044) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1373s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0044` Sources: [20:52 seg-0041](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0041) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1252s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0041`; [21:08 seg-0042](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0042) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1268s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0042`; [22:07 seg-0043](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0043) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1327s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0043`; [22:53 seg-0044](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0044) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1373s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0044` ### Are there things that other countries can learn from China? Jiang says yes: other countries can learn from China's respect for education, teacher professional development, collaborative planning, and teacher research culture, even though the test-score end goal remains wrong. Jiang says yes: other countries can learn from China's respect for education, teacher professional development, collaborative planning, and teacher research culture, even though the test-score end goal remains wrong. Sources: [26:40 seg-0052](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0052) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1600s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0052`; [27:42 seg-0053](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0053) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1662s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0053`; [28:38 seg-0054](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0054) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1718s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0054`; [32:10 seg-0061](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0061) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1930s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0061` Sources: [25:47 seg-0050](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0050) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1547s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0050`; [26:36 seg-0051](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0051) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1596s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0051`; [26:40 seg-0052](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0052) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1600s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0052`; [27:42 seg-0053](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0053) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1662s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0053`; [28:38 seg-0054](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0054) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1718s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0054`; [32:10 seg-0061](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0061) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=1930s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0061` ### What inspired you to come into schooling and education if your experience of it was quite automated? Jiang answers autobiographically: childhood stress and trauma inhibited his learning, but teachers later noticed a spark, encouraged him, and made education feel empowering and liberating. Jiang answers autobiographically: childhood stress and trauma inhibited his learning, but teachers later noticed a spark, encouraged him, and made education feel empowering and liberating. Sources: [37:04 seg-0073](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0073) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2224s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0073`; [37:56 seg-0074](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0074) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2276s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0074`; [38:51 seg-0075](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0075) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2331s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0075` Sources: [36:48 seg-0072](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0072) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2208s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0072`; [37:04 seg-0073](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0073) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2224s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0073`; [37:56 seg-0074](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0074) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2276s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0074`; [38:51 seg-0075](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0075) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2331s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0075` ### If you were to distill your current thinking about education to its essence, what is one thought or resource that you would like to leave listeners with? Jiang says he benefited from meritocracy but has become skeptical of it. His dream is a more democratic, accessible school system where every student can access an elite education. Jiang says he benefited from meritocracy but has become skeptical of it. His dream is a more democratic, accessible school system where every student can access an elite education. Sources: [42:04 seg-0091](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0091) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2524s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0091`; [42:42 seg-0092](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0092) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2562s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0092`; [42:46 seg-0093](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0093) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2566s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0093` Sources: [41:49 seg-0090](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0090) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2509s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0090`; [42:04 seg-0091](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0091) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2524s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0091`; [42:42 seg-0092](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0092) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2562s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0092`; [42:46 seg-0093](https://jianglens.com/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje/transcript/#seg-0093) ([video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRuUvMKxJE&t=2566s)) `video:interview-vhruuvmkxje@transcript:v1#seg-0093` ## Retrieval Notes This Markdown file is the compressed public reading. It intentionally does not contain the full transcript. For exact wording, timestamps, timed chunks, transcript segment IDs, and source refs, fetch [/data/lens/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.json](https://jianglens.com/data/lens/interviews/interview-vhruuvmkxje.json).