{ "generated_by": "Generated by ops/scripts/compile-content.mjs. Do not edit by hand.", "generated_at": "deterministic", "slug": "interview-875hvfdrxzy", "id": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy", "source_class": "interview", "collection": "interviews", "title": "Education in China (Sinica interview with Jiang Xueqin)", "source_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY", "video_id": "875HVFDrXzY", "embed_url": "https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/875HVFDrXzY", "published_at": "2014-07-14", "recorded_at": null, "date_precision": "day", "date_label": "2014-07-14, day precision", "chronology_status": "dated", "channel": { "id": "sinica-podcast", "handle": "sinica-podcast", "title": "Sinica Podcast", "url": "https://www.chinafile.com/library/sinica-podcast/education-china" }, "path_base": "/interviews", "path": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_path": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/", "data_url": "/data/lens/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy.json", "counts": { "semantic_passes": 13, "interactions": 32, "speaker_notes": 13, "claims": 48, "signature_moments": 25, "predictions": 0, "models": 13, "glossary_terms": 27, "chronology_notes": 9, "uncertainty_notes": 6, "glossary_candidates": 27, "transcript_segments": 100, "transcript_words": 9051, "duration_seconds": 2815.8, "duration_label": "46:55" }, "paths": { "source": "content/sources/videos/interview-875hvfdrxzy/source.yaml", "transcript": "content/sources/videos/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcripts/v1/transcript.clean.jsonl", "semantic_bundle": "content/lens/evidence/videos/interview-875hvfdrxzy.semantic.json", "semantic_passes": [ "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0001.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0002.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0003.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0004.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0005.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0006.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0007.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0008.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0009.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0010.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0011.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0012.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-875hvfdrxzy/packet-0013.semantic.json" ], "read": "content/lens/episodes/interview-875hvfdrxzy/read.json" }, "read": { "id": "episode-read:interview-875hvfdrxzy:v1", "kind": "episode-read", "schema_version": 2, "source_id": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy", "slug": "interview-875hvfdrxzy", "title": "The Test Is Not The Truth", "subtitle": "A cleaned reading of the Sinica education interview", "read_time": "10 min", "editorial_mode": "distilled-interview", "voice_policy": "Direct argumentative prose derived from the interview. Preserve interviewer pressure and Jiang response without impersonating first-person authorship except when quoting verified source material.", "trace_policy": "Paragraph-level transcript refs. Keep China education claims framed as the original Sinica episode published on 2014-07-14; the 2026-04-05 YouTube date is a later platform upload date.", "dek": "Shanghai can win PISA and still not prove that its schools are forming whole people. Jiang turns the envy around: every test tests test-taking, Gaokao survives because China lacks trust, and the student trained to obey may break when the classroom asks him to speak.", "thesis": "The interview begins with the global scoreboard and ends with the learning brain. PISA rewards a culture that can make fourteen-year-olds sit for five hours. Gaokao persists because a single score feels fairer than institutions, recommendations, or guanxi. Reform needs openness, diversity, and risk, but the families most able to demand change often leave. Study abroad then reveals the deeper problem: China and the West train different social bodies. One makes discipline, endurance, and test competence; the other demands argument, self-assertion, and problem-solving under uncertainty. The good school has to hold discipline and freedom together without confusing the test for the truth.", "opening": { "heading": "Core Reading", "text": "The pressure question is simple: if Shanghai tops PISA, why is Chinese education still accused of killing creativity? Jiang answers by attacking the scoreboard itself. PISA sees one thing very well: how fourteen-year-olds perform on a long test. East Asia is built to win that game. But a child is not only literacy and numeracy. A child also needs friends, mistakes, risk, individual space, confidence, play, hard work, and the courage to speak when no answer key is waiting.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "marks": [ { "text": "sit still and do a test for five hours", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "any test, will just test your ability to do well on the test", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "a balance between discipline and freedom", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. 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But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, "beats": [ { "id": "pisa-is-a-test-of-test-culture", "heading": "PISA Is A Test Of Test Culture", "time_range": "01:17-09:27", "summary": "The hosts begin with Shanghai PISA envy; Jiang replies that Shanghai-only reporting and East Asian test culture make the result less universal than it looks.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "pisa-is-a-test-of-test-culture-001", "text": "The interview opens in contradiction. Chinese education is praised because Shanghai beats the world in math, science, and reading, and derided because the same system is said to produce soulless automatons. 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PISA does not reveal education as such; it reveals how fourteen-year-olds perform in a school system. That age is volatile, and East Asian systems are unusually good at getting students to sit still through long tests. Shanghai wins a test that rewards precisely the kind of discipline its culture trains.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] }, { "id": "pisa-is-a-test-of-test-culture-003", "text": "The sharper claim is that every test is biased toward test-taking. IQ, SAT, Gaokao, PISA: each measures the ability to perform inside its own ritual. East Asia has a long high-stakes testing culture, so the test becomes an arena where the Chinese kid in the back can finally say, this is my opportunity to shine.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021" ], "marks": [ { "text": "this is my opportunity to shine", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "segment_id": "seg-0021", "start": 522.86, "end": 566.7, "time_label": "8:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese love taking tests, right? 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So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ] }, { "id": "what-china-gets-right-and-wrong", "heading": "What China Gets Right And Wrong", "time_range": "08:42-15:07", "summary": "Jiang gives Chinese education its due: it teaches basic skills at scale, but the same machine limits creativity, judgment, empathy, and collaboration.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "what-china-gets-right-and-wrong-001", "text": "Shanghai K-12 is, in Jiang’s view, the best China has to offer for fundamental literacy and numeracy. The national system is a blend: an old examination civilization that rewards orthodoxy and conformity, and a Stalinist project that taught countryside people enough numeracy and literacy to become factory workers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] }, { "id": "what-china-gets-right-and-wrong-002", "text": "That blend gives China three school functions: mass basic skills, political orthodoxy across a huge diverse country, and merit allocation of scarce education resources. The Gaokao trains the child from birth because it is the mechanism that promises fair distribution.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. 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And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "segment_id": "seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "time_label": "12:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And that's where China is most lacking right now." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "start": 522, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "segment_id": "seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "time_label": "12:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And that's where China is most lacking right now." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ] }, { "id": "gaokao-replaces-trust", "heading": "Gaokao Replaces Trust", "time_range": "13:00-19:34", "summary": "The exam survives because parents distrust institutions more than they dislike pressure; a score seems fair where recommendations look like elite capture.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "gaokao-replaces-trust-001", "text": "Reform runs into parents before it reaches policy. Parents suspect that if the test is weakened, the elite will take the ladder away. Jiang states the fear bluntly: without a score, all that remains is guanxi, and middle- or lower-class families are finished.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "marks": [ { "text": "the elite is trying to screw them", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "lens_points": [ "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points_detail": [ { "id": "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "valid": true, "concept": "education-soul-game", "title": null, "doc_title": "Education As A Soul Game", "doc_slug": "lens/education-as-a-soul-game", "url": "/lens/education-as-a-soul-game/#test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "text": "Test scores replace institutional trust when families trust a visible exam more than teachers, recommendations, qualitative judgment, civil society, or administrators; the test then protects against elite capture while keeping the student's soul inside the test game.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ] } ] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "segment_id": "seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "time_label": "12:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "gaokao-replaces-trust-002", "text": "That is why Gaokao is not merely an exam. In a low-trust society it bypasses institutions. Parents do not trust teacher recommendations, qualitative assessments, or civil society. A national score feels objective and fair because it does not ask the family to believe a principal, a committee, or a bureaucracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "marks": [ { "text": "the Gaokao is that it bypasses institutions", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033" ], "lens_points": [ "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." } ], "lens_points_detail": [ { "id": "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "valid": true, "concept": "education-soul-game", "title": null, "doc_title": "Education As A Soul Game", "doc_slug": "lens/education-as-a-soul-game", "url": "/lens/education-as-a-soul-game/#test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "text": "Test scores replace institutional trust when families trust a visible exam more than teachers, recommendations, qualitative judgment, civil society, or administrators; the test then protects against elite capture while keeping the student's soul inside the test game.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ] } ] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "gaokao-replaces-trust-003", "text": "Official reform language does not solve this. Jiang says administrators have perfected public doublethink: they tell visiting delegations and reporters that they want less pressure and more reform, then continue the same old test focus once the visitors leave.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0039", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "marks": [ { "text": "saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0039", "segment_id": "seg-0039", "start": 1097.86, "end": 1134.7, "time_label": "18:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "There's nobody here to fight the fight now. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. I mean, I was going to point that out. Exactly. That's a really difficult conundrum then. You talked though about one of the problems bei..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "start": 780, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "segment_id": "seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "time_label": "12:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. 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So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ] }, { "id": "sisyphus-needs-experimentation", "heading": "Sisyphus Needs Experimentation", "time_range": "19:34-26:19", "summary": "Asked for prescriptions, Jiang says reform is Sisyphean but not empty: create openness, diversity, risk-taking, and space for local experiments inside bureaucracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "sisyphus-needs-experimentation-001", "text": "When Kaiser asks for actionable steps, Jiang first reaches for Camus. Reforming Chinese education is a Sisyphean struggle because school is tied to politics, culture, and society. You do not change the classroom without moving the whole social order.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "marks": [ { "text": "a Sisyphean struggle", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "segment_id": "seg-0041", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1194.92, "time_label": "19:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "You're a noted educational reform advocate. What's your prescription? I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here, right? But what's your actual, what do you think are actionable steps that China can take? To f..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "segment_id": "seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "time_label": "19:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "sisyphus-needs-experimentation-002", "text": "The prescription is not a neat import from abroad. China needs openness to criticism and new ideas, diversity among schools instead of one monolithic national form, and a culture of risk where principals can try stupid ideas and fail until some local formula works.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "marks": [ { "text": "these new ideas will be stupid and they’ll fail", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "sisyphus-needs-experimentation-003", "text": "Jiang’s optimism is chastened by memory. He once predicted China would collapse around 2000 or 2001 and was wrong. China changes in generational leaps. That dynamism makes reform possible if the bureaucracy can create space for experimentation: Shenzhen, private progressive schools, and university admissions reform become hopeful but unfinished tests.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "marks": [ { "text": "Boy, was I wrong", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "start": 1174, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "segment_id": "seg-0041", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1194.92, "time_label": "19:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "You're a noted educational reform advocate. What's your prescription? I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here, right? But what's your actual, what do you think are actionable steps that China can take? To f..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ] }, { "id": "exit-drains-reform", "heading": "Exit Drains Reform", "time_range": "15:55-29:11", "summary": "The parents most disgusted with the test system often leave, which weakens the domestic voice for change and turns study abroad into a new psychological problem.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "exit-drains-reform-001", "text": "There are two parent factions. Most parents defend Gaokao because it is the only visible mobility mechanism. A smaller but powerful faction exits: America, Canada, New Zealand, even high school abroad. That exit is understandable, but it drains reform voice from inside China.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "marks": [ { "text": "voting with their feet", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "segment_id": "seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "time_label": "16:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy wi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "exit-drains-reform-002", "text": "Admissions reform hits the same suspicion. Interviews, GPA, achievements, holistic criteria - all of these may be sensible. But the unresolved question is public appetite for change when people believe institutions will just let the elite monopolize education again.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "marks": [ { "text": "The elite is going to screw us over again if we trust them", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ], "lens_points": [ "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." } ], "lens_points_detail": [ { "id": "lens-point:test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "valid": true, "concept": "education-soul-game", "title": null, "doc_title": "Education As A Soul Game", "doc_slug": "lens/education-as-a-soul-game", "url": "/lens/education-as-a-soul-game/#test-score-replaces-institutional-trust", "text": "Test scores replace institutional trust when families trust a visible exam more than teachers, recommendations, qualitative judgment, civil society, or administrators; the test then protects against elite capture while keeping the student's soul inside the test game.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ] } ] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "segment_id": "seg-0058", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1598.32, "time_label": "26:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some, some actual research? Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "exit-drains-reform-003", "text": "The interview then turns personal. Study abroad is not an abstraction for Jiang. The hosts ask because he was born in China, moved to Canada, went to Yale, and returned to work in Chinese education. The policy question becomes a life question: what happens to a student when the school culture changes faster than the self can adapt?", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "segment_id": "seg-0063", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1741.92, "time_label": "28:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "What's really interesting to me, though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being, you know, intimately acquainted with many others, is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064", "segment_id": "seg-0064", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1752.58, "time_label": "29:01", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "had, I think, in many ways, a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States. Could you talk a little bit about that?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ], "start": 955, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "segment_id": "seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "time_label": "16:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. 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Could you talk a little bit about that?" } ] }, { "id": "bad-marriage-of-school-cultures", "heading": "The Bad Marriage Of School Cultures", "time_range": "29:12-40:42", "summary": "Jiang uses his own Canada/Yale scars to argue that Chinese schooling and Western classrooms train opposite habits, so students can be bright and still shut down.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "bad-marriage-of-school-cultures-001", "text": "Jiang’s story is not triumphant exchange-program brochure prose. In Canada he was shy, awkward, bullied, and teased. At Yale he felt like a fraud among upper-class intellectual families. His father was a cook; his mother a seamstress. He ran away into China and now helps other students go abroad, knowing they may meet the same scars.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "marks": [ { "text": "helping students now go away", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "segment_id": "seg-0066", "start": 1798.18, "end": 1852.36, "time_label": "29:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Toronto, where being popular is very important and being cool and being good at sports and being good with girls. It's Canada. They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "bad-marriage-of-school-cultures-002", "text": "The sentence is harsh: China and the West are not a good marriage. Chinese schooling trains skills that work in Chinese society: do not talk too much, do not question authority, go with the flow, use networks. American classrooms demand something else: speak, debate, write a paper, advocate an opinion whether it is right or wrong.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "marks": [ { "text": "China and the West is not a good marriage", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. 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These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "bad-marriage-of-school-cultures-003", "text": "That mismatch reaches the body. Jiang says confident and happy students absorb new ideas, while stress triggers fight-or-flight and the system shuts down. A brilliant student can look empty if fear, doubt, self-hatred, and withdrawal are blocking the conversation.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0071", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074" ], "marks": [ { "text": "fight or flight response, and our system shuts down", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0071", "segment_id": "seg-0071", "start": 1954.84, "end": 1998.264, "time_label": "32:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "I get emails all the time, and I just got one this week, so while I'm thinking about it, from friends of mine who are academics or professors in different universities. And they write to me because they know I'm in Chin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074", "segment_id": "seg-0074", "start": 2060.32, "end": 2077.56, "time_label": "34:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "mean, like, all of them are very bright to be able to go to the United States, right? And they could possibly have a lot to contribute. It's just that they are, you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts an..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "bad-marriage-of-school-cultures-004", "text": "The door-key example gives the synthesis. Chinese guidance can teach a child the skill quickly; American trial can teach general problem solving. Jiang calls the contrast oversimplified, then keeps what matters: China respects hard work and sacrifice, America protects openness, individuality, and diverse discussion. The answer is not choosing one civilization of school against the other. It is learning how discipline and freedom belong together.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "marks": [ { "text": "GPS, general problem solving", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "to grow as an individual, you might have to make sacrifices", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "The tiger father does not believe in ADD", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. 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And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ] }, { "id": "reading-brain-and-lifelong-learning", "heading": "The Reading Brain Stays Open", "time_range": "40:42-46:39", "summary": "The recommendations keep the argument alive: Chinese script has real learning costs, debate matters, and neuroplasticity keeps adult learning possible.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "reading-brain-and-lifelong-learning-001", "text": "Even the recommendations keep the education argument moving. David raises Chinese orthography as labor-intensive memorization; Jiang expands through Marianne Wolf: Chinese script is weakly phonological, so spoken and written language are separated, and language learning takes many more years.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "marks": [ { "text": "the spoken language and the written language are separate", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "segment_id": "seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "time_label": "40:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas cal..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "segment_id": "seg-0091", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2525.78, "time_label": "41:36", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "And this particular book makes the case, at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case, that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or, or ce..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "reading-brain-and-lifelong-learning-002", "text": "Jiang’s book list favors motivation, creativity, discussion, and neuroplasticity. When Kaiser jokes about Outliers and rice farming, Jiang’s answer is teacherly: a debatable argument can still be useful if it creates discussion and debate. Education is not just the correct answer; it is the practice of making minds move.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "marks": [ { "text": "It creates discussion. It creates debate.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "adults can learn just as well as kids", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "segment_id": "seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "time_label": "45:29", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a ve..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "segment_id": "seg-0097", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2768.64, "time_label": "46:03", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible for better math and medical capability?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "start": 2442, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "segment_id": "seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "time_label": "40:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas cal..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "segment_id": "seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "time_label": "45:29", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a ve..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ] } ], "questions": [ { "question": "Why do they allow a city to participate rather than a country?", "asked_by": "Kaiser Guo", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0007" ], "answer": "Jiang says multiple Chinese provinces participated in 2009, but only Shanghai results were announced because OECD trusted the Shanghai methodology enough to release it.", "answer_refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "segment_id": "seg-0007", "start": 182.9, "end": 184.7, "time_label": "3:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Whenever you go to Shanghai, they allow a city to participate, but everything else is at a country level." } ], "answer_paragraphs": [ { "text": "Jiang says multiple Chinese provinces participated in 2009, but only Shanghai results were announced because OECD trusted the Shanghai methodology enough to release it.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ] }, { "question": "Why is it skewed?", "asked_by": "David Moser", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013" ], "answer": "Jiang argues PISA rewards skills East Asian school systems emphasize, especially disciplined test performance by fourteen-year-olds.", "answer_refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013", "segment_id": "seg-0013", "start": 302.7, "end": 316.7, "time_label": "5:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "No, I was just going to say the way you put that, though, is perhaps suspect. You said it indicates that the test is skewed. But I mean, what is the proof of that? I mean, they could say also that we just excel in these..." } ], "answer_paragraphs": [ { "text": "Jiang argues PISA rewards skills East Asian school systems emphasize, especially disciplined test performance by fourteen-year-olds.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ] }, { "question": "What are actionable steps China can take?", "asked_by": "Kaiser Guo", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041" ], "answer": "Jiang says reform is Sisyphean but needs openness, diversity, and risk-taking rather than simple importation of foreign curricula.", "answer_refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "segment_id": "seg-0041", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1194.92, "time_label": "19:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "You're a noted educational reform advocate. What's your prescription? I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here, right? But what's your actual, what do you think are actionable steps that China can take? To f..." } ], "answer_paragraphs": [ { "text": "Jiang says reform is Sisyphean but needs openness, diversity, and risk-taking rather than simple importation of foreign curricula.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ] }, { "question": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up interviews with certain applicants?", "asked_by": "David Moser", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058" ], "answer": "Jiang says Gaokao reform is considering diversified admissions such as interviews, GPA, and achievements, but public distrust makes any reform politically difficult.", "answer_refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "segment_id": "seg-0058", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1598.32, "time_label": "26:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some, some actual research? Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right." } ], "answer_paragraphs": [ { "text": "Jiang says Gaokao reform is considering diversified admissions such as interviews, GPA, and achievements, but public distrust makes any reform politically difficult.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ] }, { "question": "Could you talk a little bit about your own experience?", "asked_by": "Kaiser Guo", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064" ], "answer": "Jiang describes Canada and Yale as psychologically scarring and uses that experience to warn that Chinese students need preparation for Western classroom culture.", "answer_refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "segment_id": "seg-0063", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1741.92, "time_label": "28:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "What's really interesting to me, though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being, you know, intimately acquainted with many others, is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064", "segment_id": "seg-0064", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1752.58, "time_label": "29:01", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "had, I think, in many ways, a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States. Could you talk a little bit about that?" } ], "answer_paragraphs": [ { "text": "Jiang describes Canada and Yale as psychologically scarring and uses that experience to warn that Chinese students need preparation for Western classroom culture.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "segment_id": "seg-0066", "start": 1798.18, "end": 1852.36, "time_label": "29:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Toronto, where being popular is very important and being cool and being good at sports and being good with girls. It's Canada. They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ] } ], "source_note": "This is a Sinica interview with multiple speakers. The public read treats Jiang as the primary source for claims about education while preserving Kaiser Guo and David Moser where their questions shape the answer. Segment 0100 is ignored as ASR noise.", "provenance": { "generated_from": [ "content/sources/videos/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcripts/v1/transcript.clean.jsonl", "content/lens/evidence/videos/interview-875hvfdrxzy.semantic.json" ], "generated_at": "2026-05-15" }, "source_notes": [] }, "transcript": [ { "id": "seg-0001", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "start": 9.14, "end": 54.32, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Welcome to the Seneca Podcast, a weekly discussion of current affairs in China, coming to you from the pop -up Chinese studio here in Beijing. I'm your host, Kaiser Guo, joined this week by David Moser, our good friend and the academic director of the CET program here in Beijing. The notorious Gene Yuemi is on a big holiday this week, or he's down in Hong Kong for whatever reason, hopefully gathering good first -hand observations and forming some keen insights for a future show that we have about the recent very large -scale anti -Beijing protests, and of course what's happening now generally in the special administrative region. David, how are you, man? Very good, very good. A pleasure as always. I understand that you spent the morning at the Great Hall of the People with Secretary of State John Kerry and Vice Premier Liu Yandong, celebrating 35 years of educational exchange.", "word_count": 153, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-001", "start": 9.14, "end": 10.48, "text": "Welcome to the Seneca Podcast,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-002", "start": 10.78, "end": 12.64, "text": "a weekly discussion of current affairs in China,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-003", "start": 12.74, "end": 15.1, "text": "coming to you from the pop -up Chinese studio here in Beijing.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-004", "start": 15.4, "end": 16.46, "text": "I'm your host, Kaiser Guo,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-005", "start": 16.62, "end": 18.22, "text": "joined this week by David Moser,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-006", "start": 18.28, "end": 21.7, "text": "our good friend and the academic director of the CET program here", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-007", "start": 21.7, "end": 22.04, "text": "in Beijing.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-008", "start": 22.16, "end": 25.46, "text": "The notorious Gene Yuemi is on a big holiday this week,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-009", "start": 25.5, "end": 27.08, "text": "or he's down in Hong Kong for whatever reason,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-010", "start": 27.12, "end": 32.04, "text": "hopefully gathering good first -hand observations and forming some keen insights for", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-011", "start": 32.04, "end": 35.9, "text": "a future show that we have about the recent very large -scale", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-012", "start": 35.9, "end": 40.02, "text": "anti -Beijing protests, and of course what's happening now generally in the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-013", "start": 40.02, "end": 41.58, "text": "special administrative region.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-014", "start": 41.68, "end": 42.72, "text": "David, how are you, man?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-015", "start": 42.84, "end": 43.7, "text": "Very good, very good.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-016", "start": 43.74, "end": 44.56, "text": "A pleasure as always.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-017", "start": 44.74, "end": 46.98, "text": "I understand that you spent the morning at the Great Hall of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-018", "start": 46.98, "end": 50.58, "text": "the People with Secretary of State John Kerry and Vice Premier Liu", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0001-chunk-019", "start": 50.58, "end": 54.32, "text": "Yandong, celebrating 35 years of educational exchange.", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "ccc83ce332ca85a57a5246b71c28fa0cf9faa023fe6df70852efc239fd214179", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0001", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=9s", "time_label": "0:09", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0002", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "start": 54.32, "end": 61.38, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Of educational exchange between the People's Republic of China and the U.S., yeah. But the most exciting thing was Yao Ming was there. Yao Ming was there? Yes.", "word_count": 29, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0002-chunk-001", "start": 54.32, "end": 57.6, "text": "Of educational exchange between the People's Republic of China and the U", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0002-chunk-002", "start": 57.6, "end": 57.96, "text": ".S., yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0002-chunk-003", "start": 58.06, "end": 60.28, "text": "But the most exciting thing was Yao Ming was there.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0002-chunk-004", "start": 60.42, "end": 61.06, "text": "Yao Ming was there?", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0002-chunk-005", "start": 61.1, "end": 61.38, "text": "Yes.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "bb632d1c88903d860a0c0bcf524a6b737c0bd6a011518005e66c302b16802336", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0002", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=54s", "time_label": "0:54", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0003", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0003", "start": 61.4, "end": 73.66, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Could anyone see him? Could you see anything else except for Yao Ming? Yes, people said, sit down, please. No, he towered, let's put it that way, above everyone. Yeah, yeah. So I understand that you killed there, that you gave a really good speech.", "word_count": 45, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-001", "start": 61.4, "end": 62.7, "text": "Could anyone see him?", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-002", "start": 63.28, "end": 64.7, "text": "Could you see anything else except for Yao Ming?", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-003", "start": 65.28, "end": 66.68, "text": "Yes, people said, sit down,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-004", "start": 66.8, "end": 69.34, "text": "please. No, he towered, let's put it that way,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-005", "start": 69.4, "end": 70.1, "text": "above everyone.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-006", "start": 70.36, "end": 70.7, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-007", "start": 70.88, "end": 72.44, "text": "So I understand that you killed there,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0003-chunk-008", "start": 72.46, "end": 73.66, "text": "that you gave a really good speech.", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "557c0596c936a19c25af548d2b842f24421e8c53cd96caf536ff55e3dc65d229", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0003", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=61s", "time_label": "1:01", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0004", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "start": 73.96, "end": 77.48, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Well, thank you. I hope so. I did a little bit of stand -up for them.", "word_count": 16, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0004-chunk-001", "start": 73.96, "end": 75.12, "text": "Well, thank you.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0004-chunk-002", "start": 75.16, "end": 75.68, "text": "I hope so.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0004-chunk-003", "start": 75.84, "end": 77.48, "text": "I did a little bit of stand -up for them.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "bfac6cc470a8220f5d11e98dac40ae0c58b6de0aff9e4a90617d539d70db26a8", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0004", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=73s", "time_label": "1:13", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0005", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes the object of breathless or even envious praise. Sometimes it's deriding. Probably more often it's just derided for producing soulless automatons who utterly lack critical thinking skills or imagination or the capacity to innovate. You have on the one hand the Shanghai students kicking serious ass on the PISA, the Program for International Student Assessment. They took first place in mathematics and science and reading a couple of times in this tri -annual assessment. On the other hand, you have a great deal of criticism over the ubiquitous practice of teaching to the test, teaching specifically to the Gaokao, to the college entrance exam. 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Sometimes it's deriding.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-006", "start": 93.28, "end": 97.68, "text": "Probably more often it's just derided for producing soulless automatons who utterly", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-007", "start": 97.68, "end": 101.74, "text": "lack critical thinking skills or imagination or the capacity to innovate.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-008", "start": 102.02, "end": 105.72, "text": "You have on the one hand the Shanghai students kicking serious ass", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-009", "start": 105.72, "end": 108.46, "text": "on the PISA, the Program for International Student Assessment.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-010", "start": 108.84, "end": 112.7, "text": "They took first place in mathematics and science and reading a couple", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-011", "start": 112.7, "end": 115.5, "text": "of times in this tri -annual assessment.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-012", "start": 115.84, "end": 118.1, "text": "On the other hand, you have a great deal of criticism over", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-013", "start": 118.1, "end": 120.38, "text": "the ubiquitous practice of teaching to the test,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-014", "start": 120.48, "end": 122.04, "text": "teaching specifically to the Gaokao,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-015", "start": 122.04, "end": 123.16, "text": "to the college entrance exam.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-016", "start": 123.28, "end": 123.3, "text": "You have a great deal of criticism for the technical and statistical", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0005-chunk-017", "start": 123.3, "end": 130.02, "text": "explanations, about the rigidity and the hierarchical nature of thinking that's imposed", "word_count": 12 } ], "text_sha256": "6fef4fc51f90486c35200f2d4ed8d4c5aa88fc8b168a5c4986950233c58adc15", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0005", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=77s", "time_label": "1:17", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0006", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high school affiliated with prestigious Tsinghua University here in Beijing. Xueqin is an outspoken and oft -quoted advocate for education reform, someone with very strong views on what's right and what's wrong. Xueqin, welcome to Sinica, and thanks for taking the time to share your ideas with our listeners. I'm very pleased to be here, guys. This is actually my first podcast, so I'm very nervous. Well, we'll be gentle with you. Thank you very much. I promise. So let's talk first about Shanghai's very impressive PISA results, which was included by the OECD in tests, I think, for the first time in 2009? That's correct, yes. But it's Shanghai that took first place. 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So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-004", "start": 140.08, "end": 142.5, "text": "who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-005", "start": 142.58, "end": 146.38, "text": "the high school affiliated with prestigious Tsinghua University here in Beijing.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-006", "start": 146.8, "end": 150.3, "text": "Xueqin is an outspoken and oft -quoted advocate for education reform,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-007", "start": 150.54, "end": 153.26, "text": "someone with very strong views on what's right and what's wrong.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-008", "start": 154.9, "end": 157.18, "text": "Xueqin, welcome to Sinica, and thanks for taking the time to share", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-009", "start": 157.18, "end": 158.32, "text": "your ideas with our listeners.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-010", "start": 158.66, "end": 159.64, "text": "I'm very pleased to be here,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-011", "start": 159.74, "end": 161.54, "text": "guys. This is actually my first podcast,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-012", "start": 161.7, "end": 162.68, "text": "so I'm very nervous.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-013", "start": 162.8, "end": 163.92, "text": "Well, we'll be gentle with you.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-014", "start": 163.96, "end": 164.62, "text": "Thank you very much.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-015", "start": 164.7, "end": 164.8, "text": "I promise.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-016", "start": 165.66, "end": 168.84, "text": "So let's talk first about Shanghai's very impressive PISA results,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-017", "start": 169.06, "end": 172.22, "text": "which was included by the OECD in tests,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-018", "start": 172.28, "end": 173.92, "text": "I think, for the first time in 2009?", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-019", "start": 174.36, "end": 175.14, "text": "That's correct, yes.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-020", "start": 175.2, "end": 177.74, "text": "But it's Shanghai that took first place.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-021", "start": 177.84, "end": 181.42, "text": "First, explain why do they allow a city to", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0006-chunk-022", "start": 181.42, "end": 182.86, "text": "participate rather than a country?", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "a0d177874f57960802395a224e560652129ce297ad8c36aefca0ca5596e3bd47", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0006", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=130s", "time_label": "2:10", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0007", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "start": 182.9, "end": 184.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Whenever you go to Shanghai, they allow a city to participate, but everything else is at a country level.", "word_count": 19, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0007-chunk-001", "start": 182.9, "end": 183.24, "text": "Whenever you go to Shanghai,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0007-chunk-002", "start": 183.24, "end": 183.24, "text": "they allow a city to participate,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0007-chunk-003", "start": 183.24, "end": 184.7, "text": "but everything else is at a country level.", "word_count": 8 } ], "text_sha256": "30f9ef01294658f5c0435ea3779d7cb1ebf3241a87fabf8cf685075a9cf55fe9", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0007", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=182s", "time_label": "3:02", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0008", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And Andreas Schleicher, who runs PISA, told me that the reason why is that the OECD is only happy and confident with the methodology in the Shanghai PISA performance. Okay. So for a lot of bureaucratic reasons, they chose not to give a country ranking and rather just focus on Shanghai.", "word_count": 85, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-001", "start": 184.98, "end": 188.9, "text": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-002", "start": 188.98, "end": 191.36, "text": "and 12 provinces, including Shanghai,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-003", "start": 191.48, "end": 192.54, "text": "participated in the PISA.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-004", "start": 192.72, "end": 196.52, "text": "And in 2010, when the results were publicly released,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-005", "start": 197.06, "end": 200.6, "text": "only results from Shanghai were announced.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-006", "start": 201.06, "end": 202.96, "text": "And Andreas Schleicher, who runs PISA,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-007", "start": 203.14, "end": 207.12, "text": "told me that the reason why is that the OECD is only", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-008", "start": 207.12, "end": 211.4, "text": "happy and confident with the methodology in the Shanghai PISA performance.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-009", "start": 211.76, "end": 214.58, "text": "Okay. So for a lot of bureaucratic reasons,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-010", "start": 214.82, "end": 218.78, "text": "they chose not to give a country ranking and rather just focus", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0008-chunk-011", "start": 218.78, "end": 219.38, "text": "on Shanghai.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "2f3151b919e554f0f5f11028617e62dc2a43cb0ecf75890c0b382277c36f023d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0008", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=184s", "time_label": "3:04", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0009", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0009", "start": 219.62, "end": 228.16, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "I guess there are a couple of other countries that only do municipality. I think in India, I think it's only Bombay or Mumbai. Is that correct?", "word_count": 27, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0009-chunk-001", "start": 219.62, "end": 223.34, "text": "I guess there are a couple of other countries that only do", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0009-chunk-002", "start": 223.34, "end": 225, "text": "municipality. I think in India,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0009-chunk-003", "start": 225.16, "end": 227.06, "text": "I think it's only Bombay or Mumbai.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0009-chunk-004", "start": 227.3, "end": 228.16, "text": "Is that correct?", "word_count": 3 } ], "text_sha256": "66fc3ccd9bf962d38edb0b6f5310761b1760799a67fc08d18bc0baba07edd36e", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0009", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=219s", "time_label": "3:39", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0010", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0010", "start": 228.58, "end": 248.22, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "I'm not sure. I mean, for my knowledge, there are only three cities, Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai, all part of the China PRC officially. That's right. And they're the ones whose results are announced as separate entities. But I'm not sure about India actually.", "word_count": 45, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-001", "start": 228.58, "end": 229.32, "text": "I'm not sure.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-002", "start": 229.52, "end": 231, "text": "I mean, for my knowledge,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-003", "start": 231.26, "end": 232.66, "text": "there are only three cities,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-004", "start": 232.88, "end": 235.12, "text": "Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-005", "start": 235.38, "end": 238.6, "text": "all part of the China PRC officially.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-006", "start": 239.54, "end": 240.1, "text": "That's right.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-007", "start": 240.1, "end": 244.72, "text": "And they're the ones whose results are announced as separate entities.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0010-chunk-008", "start": 245.12, "end": 248.22, "text": "But I'm not sure about India actually.", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "9b6a753b417bfe66c7443063a43f05a1a6099fd2c6a9dc90a24ec8b1a2326a9f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0010", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=228s", "time_label": "3:48", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0011", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "start": 248.78, "end": 263.02, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Yeah. I mean, it was really striking. I think anyone who looks at that list of rankings of PISA will not only notice that Shanghai is way up there at the top, but also that everything in the sort of top echelon is an East Asian country or region.", "word_count": 49, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0011-chunk-001", "start": 248.78, "end": 250.4, "text": "Yeah. I mean, it was really striking.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0011-chunk-002", "start": 250.5, "end": 253.62, "text": "I think anyone who looks at that list of rankings of PISA", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0011-chunk-003", "start": 253.62, "end": 257.08, "text": "will not only notice that Shanghai is way up there at the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0011-chunk-004", "start": 257.08, "end": 261.04, "text": "top, but also that everything in the sort of top echelon is", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0011-chunk-005", "start": 261.04, "end": 263.02, "text": "an East Asian country or region.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "5e1afcd8762220c264323943420ee8e9dc5ab30a0efd234ea4904bb0e970dd3e", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0011", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=248s", "time_label": "4:08", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0012", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA rankings. And you can make the argument that that's really an indicator that PISA is skewed towards certain skills that are focused in East Asian education systems and not particularly focused in, say, European or American school systems. It's mathematics heavy. Is that right? Well, there are three subjects. There's mathematics, there's reading, and then there's mathematics. And then there's science. But David, you want to add something?", "word_count": 102, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-001", "start": 263.32, "end": 265.94, "text": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-002", "start": 266.26, "end": 267.76, "text": "then you have South Korea,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-003", "start": 267.9, "end": 269.92, "text": "Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-004", "start": 269.92, "end": 270.48, "text": "Hong Kong, Japan.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-005", "start": 270.72, "end": 274.64, "text": "Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-006", "start": 274.86, "end": 279.62, "text": "Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA rankings.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-007", "start": 279.84, "end": 283.72, "text": "And you can make the argument that that's really an indicator that", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-008", "start": 283.72, "end": 287.9, "text": "PISA is skewed towards certain skills that are focused in East Asian", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-009", "start": 287.9, "end": 290.8, "text": "education systems and not particularly focused in,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-010", "start": 290.86, "end": 293.48, "text": "say, European or American school systems.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-011", "start": 294.18, "end": 295.34, "text": "It's mathematics heavy.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-012", "start": 295.4, "end": 295.76, "text": "Is that right?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-013", "start": 295.96, "end": 296.96, "text": "Well, there are three subjects.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-014", "start": 297.04, "end": 299.9, "text": "There's mathematics, there's reading, and then there's mathematics.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-015", "start": 299.9, "end": 300.42, "text": "And then there's science.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0012-chunk-016", "start": 300.64, "end": 302.68, "text": "But David, you want to add something?", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "1c7a78a5f4bbf9c48b3eee072559c6b2788f25f766f712af122ec5f9b31de687", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0012", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=263s", "time_label": "4:23", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0013", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013", "start": 302.7, "end": 316.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "No, I was just going to say the way you put that, though, is perhaps suspect. You said it indicates that the test is skewed. But I mean, what is the proof of that? I mean, they could say also that we just excel in these subjects. Why is this skewed?", "word_count": 51, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-001", "start": 302.7, "end": 304.66, "text": "No, I was just going to say the way you put that,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-002", "start": 304.66, "end": 306, "text": "though, is perhaps suspect.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-003", "start": 306.38, "end": 308.94, "text": "You said it indicates that the test is skewed.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-004", "start": 309.08, "end": 311.1, "text": "But I mean, what is the proof of that?", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-005", "start": 311.32, "end": 314.72, "text": "I mean, they could say also that we just excel in these", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0013-chunk-006", "start": 314.72, "end": 316.7, "text": "subjects. Why is this skewed?", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "57757f7d2eedbbd397ce3afb2c3197ffa9bf74525743f57ba4ed7be282644008", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0013", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=302s", "time_label": "5:02", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0014", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the age from first time when they're 7 or 14 and then 24. So the results only reflect how 14 -year -olds perform in the school system. Now, as we know, 14 -year -olds are probably the most volatile age group of students. I mean, they're undergoing through puberty. There's a tectonic shift in their brains, in their hormones. So that's a very volatile and really unpredictable age for students. Right. So you look at America. Listen, when you go into a classroom in America, how many 14 -year -olds can sit still? And can you get them to sit still for five hours? And that's something that East Asia does very well. These Singaporean kids, these kids in China, they can sit still and do a test for five hours.", "word_count": 174, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-001", "start": 316.72, "end": 319.88, "text": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-002", "start": 320, "end": 323.86, "text": "But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-003", "start": 323.86, "end": 326.98, "text": "of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-004", "start": 327.34, "end": 329.14, "text": "So only 14 -year -olds are tested.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-005", "start": 329.9, "end": 332.88, "text": "So that's tested from the age from first time when they're 7", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-006", "start": 332.88, "end": 335.24, "text": "or 14 and then 24.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-007", "start": 336.02, "end": 340.48, "text": "So the results only reflect how 14 -year -olds perform in the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-008", "start": 340.48, "end": 341.2, "text": "school system.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-009", "start": 341.44, "end": 344.54, "text": "Now, as we know, 14 -year -olds are probably the most volatile", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-010", "start": 344.54, "end": 346.84, "text": "age group of students.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-011", "start": 347.02, "end": 348.22, "text": "I mean, they're undergoing through puberty.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-012", "start": 349.2, "end": 353.1, "text": "There's a tectonic shift in their brains,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-013", "start": 353.2, "end": 353.68, "text": "in their hormones.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-014", "start": 353.94, "end": 358.9, "text": "So that's a very volatile and really unpredictable age for students.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0014-chunk-015", "start": 359.9, "end": 361.14, "text": "Right. 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Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?", "word_count": 38, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0015-chunk-001", "start": 376.72, "end": 379.18, "text": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0015-chunk-002", "start": 379.18, "end": 381.34, "text": "in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0015-chunk-003", "start": 381.34, "end": 381.78, "text": "do a test.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0015-chunk-004", "start": 381.9, "end": 383.94, "text": "Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy?", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0015-chunk-005", "start": 383.98, "end": 385.26, "text": "Or is that good?", "word_count": 4 } ], "text_sha256": "14843ee770d6e151c9b7afa4c494c908596f9d8fa20b2f3d340d5bd0f6bea2b2", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0015", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=376s", "time_label": "6:16", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0016", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0016", "start": 385.62, "end": 386.02, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0016-chunk-001", "start": 385.62, "end": 386.02, "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "85fec70372b092bb42d021a6d1b373081dde8bcf90feb49e0725e285043fb0ad", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0016", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=385s", "time_label": "6:25", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0017", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0017", "start": 386.28, "end": 400.4, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Is that good? There's this German sort of virtue that they have. They have a word for it, which means sit flesh, the ability to sit for hours and concentrate. Why is that not an advantage? Stick -to -itivity. Yeah, stick -to -itivity. Anti -ADD.", "word_count": 45, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-001", "start": 386.28, "end": 387.24, "text": "Is that good?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-002", "start": 387.32, "end": 389.88, "text": "There's this German sort of virtue that they have.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-003", "start": 389.88, "end": 390.7, "text": "They have a word for it,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-004", "start": 390.78, "end": 395.9, "text": "which means sit flesh, the ability to sit for hours and concentrate.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-005", "start": 396.12, "end": 397.2, "text": "Why is that not an advantage?", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-006", "start": 397.2, "end": 397.94, "text": "Stick -to -itivity.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-007", "start": 398.24, "end": 399.28, "text": "Yeah, stick -to -itivity.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0017-chunk-008", "start": 399.38, "end": 400.4, "text": "Anti -ADD.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "06f1e70da1362278fbf3ef19a93789870801e9b0e43d127fd7e17a521d5d084d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0017", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=386s", "time_label": "6:26", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0018", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018", "start": 401.2, "end": 457.12, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Wow. I mean, you guys are speaking on behalf of the Chinese education system. I'm not prepared for this. But what I would argue is that education encompasses many different spheres. And the school system, which focuses on literacy and numeracy, it's only one part. Right. It's not just one part of a child's developmental... Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Right. So I think that the ability to interact with friends, the ability to make mistakes, the opportunity to take risks, you know, individual space, especially for teenagers, is very important. And the problem in China is that students are not given as individual space. It's schooling from morning until they go to bed. So it's either, you know, going to school and sitting in lectures from like nine until four, and then going to cram school, and then whatever extracurricular activities the parents have arranged for the kid.", "word_count": 150, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-001", "start": 401.2, "end": 405.36, "text": "Wow. I mean, you guys are speaking on behalf of the Chinese", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-002", "start": 405.36, "end": 406.2, "text": "education system.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-003", "start": 406.2, "end": 407.42, "text": "I'm not prepared for this.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-004", "start": 407.72, "end": 414.6, "text": "But what I would argue is that education encompasses many different spheres.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-005", "start": 414.92, "end": 418.2, "text": "And the school system, which focuses on literacy and numeracy,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-006", "start": 418.32, "end": 419.46, "text": "it's only one part.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-007", "start": 420, "end": 421.9, "text": "Right. It's not just one part of a child's developmental...", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-008", "start": 421.9, "end": 424.36, "text": "Yeah, I definitely agree with that.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-009", "start": 424.42, "end": 427.52, "text": "Right. So I think that the ability to interact with friends,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-010", "start": 427.76, "end": 429.3, "text": "the ability to make mistakes,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-011", "start": 429.68, "end": 432.24, "text": "the opportunity to take risks,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-012", "start": 432.74, "end": 436.26, "text": "you know, individual space, especially for teenagers,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-013", "start": 436.44, "end": 437.06, "text": "is very important.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-014", "start": 437.4, "end": 441.04, "text": "And the problem in China is that students are not given as", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-015", "start": 441.04, "end": 441.6, "text": "individual space.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-016", "start": 441.84, "end": 444.88, "text": "It's schooling from morning until they go to bed.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-017", "start": 445.22, "end": 446.62, "text": "So it's either, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-018", "start": 446.66, "end": 450.94, "text": "going to school and sitting in lectures from like nine until four,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-019", "start": 451.06, "end": 452.24, "text": "and then going to cram school,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0018-chunk-020", "start": 452.36, "end": 457.12, "text": "and then whatever extracurricular activities the parents have arranged for the kid.", "word_count": 12 } ], "text_sha256": "f523503a021d47be50be403ad5c5238ed09a63945b2e0ffe4d73a8b7510cb083", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0018", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=401s", "time_label": "6:41", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0019", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0019", "start": 457.3, "end": 469.96, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "So you're saying almost that the PISA is a culturally biased exam, right? Favors a sort of not just a formal educational system, but actually a style of parenting and everything that is...", "word_count": 33, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0019-chunk-001", "start": 457.3, "end": 460.34, "text": "So you're saying almost that the PISA is a culturally biased exam,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0019-chunk-002", "start": 460.54, "end": 465.36, "text": "right? Favors a sort of not just a formal educational system,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0019-chunk-003", "start": 465.5, "end": 469.96, "text": "but actually a style of parenting and everything that is...", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "5c631ef8b2781e665f2981cb46c23696d6e85250f075d40f35d6809c9f2c0533", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0019", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=457s", "time_label": "7:37", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0020", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've discovered is that every test, any test, will just test your ability to do well on the test, including the IQ test, including the SAT, including the Gaokao, which is the National College Interest Examination in China, including the PISA. So the fact of the matter is that East Asia is a testing culture. High -stakes testing is fundamental and ingrained in the culture. It has roots that goes back, you know, thousands of years in East Asian culture. Mm -hmm. So, of course, East Asian kids will do better on a test than kids in Europe and America. I mean, like, another example of this is, like, you look at the SAT, right? Well, kids from East Asia will dominate over other groups in America.", "word_count": 165, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-001", "start": 469.96, "end": 472.3, "text": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-002", "start": 472.3, "end": 473.52, "text": "is fundamentally biased.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-003", "start": 474.18, "end": 476.2, "text": "We've spent, you know, decades of research,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-004", "start": 476.32, "end": 477.94, "text": "researching tests like the IQ test,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-005", "start": 478, "end": 478.3, "text": "the IQ test, the IQ test,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-006", "start": 478.3, "end": 478.3, "text": "the SAT.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-007", "start": 478.6, "end": 481.82, "text": "And what we've discovered is that every test,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-008", "start": 481.9, "end": 484.52, "text": "any test, will just test your ability to do well on the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-009", "start": 484.52, "end": 485.74, "text": "test, including the IQ test,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-010", "start": 485.84, "end": 487.98, "text": "including the SAT, including the Gaokao,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-011", "start": 488.1, "end": 491.78, "text": "which is the National College Interest Examination in China,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-012", "start": 491.82, "end": 492.6, "text": "including the PISA.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-013", "start": 492.78, "end": 495.76, "text": "So the fact of the matter is that East Asia is a", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-014", "start": 495.76, "end": 496.5, "text": "testing culture.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-015", "start": 497, "end": 502.14, "text": "High -stakes testing is fundamental and ingrained in the culture.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-016", "start": 502.42, "end": 504.06, "text": "It has roots that goes back,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-017", "start": 504.14, "end": 506.26, "text": "you know, thousands of years in East Asian culture.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-018", "start": 506.44, "end": 506.74, "text": "Mm -hmm.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-019", "start": 506.74, "end": 510.64, "text": "So, of course, East Asian kids will do better on a test", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-020", "start": 510.64, "end": 513.22, "text": "than kids in Europe and America.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-021", "start": 513.46, "end": 514.74, "text": "I mean, like, another example of this is,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-022", "start": 514.78, "end": 516.06, "text": "like, you look at the SAT,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0020-chunk-023", "start": 516.3, "end": 519.7, "text": "right? 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But on a math test, this is my time. So this is basically, you know, the PISA is basically a godsend for Shanghai because, you know, the Shanghai authorities, they're very much concerned with international reputation. They really want to promote their school system. So, I mean, you could make the argument that Shanghai did so on the PISA because they were motivated to do well. From the top down, the educational authorities told the teachers, listen, make sure your kids do well on the PISA. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.", "word_count": 155, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-001", "start": 522.86, "end": 525.02, "text": "Chinese love taking tests, right?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-002", "start": 525.24, "end": 527.24, "text": "I mean, in America, you know,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-003", "start": 527.24, "end": 528.68, "text": "you say to a class,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-004", "start": 529.4, "end": 530.52, "text": "okay, we're doing a test today.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-005", "start": 530.68, "end": 531.6, "text": "All the kids groan, right?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-006", "start": 531.66, "end": 533.66, "text": "Except for that one Chinese kid in the back who's like,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-007", "start": 533.74, "end": 535.1, "text": "yes, this is my opportunity to shine,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-008", "start": 535.16, "end": 535.36, "text": "you know?", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-009", "start": 535.42, "end": 536.14, "text": "I suck at football.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-010", "start": 536.32, "end": 536.98, "text": "I'm good with girls.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-011", "start": 536.98, "end": 537.46, "text": "Not good with girls.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-012", "start": 537.68, "end": 538.72, "text": "But on a math test,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-013", "start": 538.9, "end": 540.18, "text": "this is my time.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-014", "start": 540.58, "end": 543.1, "text": "So this is basically, you know,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-015", "start": 543.1, "end": 546.84, "text": "the PISA is basically a godsend for Shanghai because,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-016", "start": 547, "end": 547.98, "text": "you know, the Shanghai authorities,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-017", "start": 548.62, "end": 550.66, "text": "they're very much concerned with international reputation.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-018", "start": 551.26, "end": 552.98, "text": "They really want to promote their school system.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-019", "start": 553.28, "end": 556.98, "text": "So, I mean, you could make the argument that Shanghai did so", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-020", "start": 556.98, "end": 559.76, "text": "on the PISA because they were motivated to do well.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-021", "start": 559.82, "end": 562.4, "text": "From the top down, the educational authorities told the teachers,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-022", "start": 562.58, "end": 565.62, "text": "listen, make sure your kids do well on the PISA.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0021-chunk-023", "start": 565.8, "end": 566.56, "text": "Yeah. 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Right. There may have been some lift generated by the top -down kind of, you know, the central authorities wanting Shanghai to do well on this.", "word_count": 40, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-001", "start": 566.7, "end": 566.7, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-002", "start": 566.7, "end": 566.7, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-003", "start": 566.7, "end": 566.7, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-004", "start": 566.7, "end": 568.86, "text": "Yeah. never happen in America or in Europe.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-005", "start": 569.06, "end": 572.88, "text": "Right. There may have been some lift generated by the", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-006", "start": 572.88, "end": 574.12, "text": "top -down kind of, you know,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0022-chunk-007", "start": 574.12, "end": 576.94, "text": "the central authorities wanting Shanghai to do well on this.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "542708380984a4aed4c637d3355e2cd95c075f2acbbad5c91c7ae88997231b8f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0022", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=566s", "time_label": "9:26", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0023", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "start": 577.06, "end": 588.34, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "But I think it's pretty widely understood that Shanghai's educational system itself among Chinese cities and provinces is exceptionally good. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, in", "word_count": 30, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0023-chunk-001", "start": 577.06, "end": 582.16, "text": "But I think it's pretty widely understood that Shanghai's educational system itself", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0023-chunk-002", "start": 582.16, "end": 585.82, "text": "among Chinese cities and provinces is exceptionally good.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0023-chunk-003", "start": 585.96, "end": 586.84, "text": "Is that correct?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0023-chunk-004", "start": 587.08, "end": 587.74, "text": "Yeah, I mean, absolutely.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0023-chunk-005", "start": 587.98, "end": 588.34, "text": "I mean, in", "word_count": 3 } ], "text_sha256": "c781b292ff300b241eb2243b36c9d9ea66e90e19087b745acc4f7ec504be2d9f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0023", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=577s", "time_label": "9:37", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0024", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it do right? What are they getting right? Right. The Chinese education system that we have today, it's a blended model of the confusion system, you know, where people looking to get into the manual system, they had to go for a series of examinations. Civil service examination. Yeah, sure, sure. To demonstrate the understanding of orthodoxy, political orthodoxy, and the ability to conform to the system. This is what we call the code system. This goes back thousands of years. So and as you say, it's a civil service examination. But, but starting in the 1950s, when China was beginning to build its economy, it also needed to create a proletariat. And that meant taking people from the countryside and teaching them basic numeracy and literacy in order for them to become factory workers.", "word_count": 172, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-001", "start": 588.34, "end": 591.22, "text": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-002", "start": 591.52, "end": 596.06, "text": "especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-003", "start": 596.26, "end": 599.9, "text": "And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-004", "start": 600.16, "end": 602.12, "text": "the very best China has to offer.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-005", "start": 602.36, "end": 603.26, "text": "What does it do right?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-006", "start": 603.34, "end": 604.14, "text": "What are they getting right?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-007", "start": 604.52, "end": 606.68, "text": "Right. The Chinese education system that we have today,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-008", "start": 606.9, "end": 609.58, "text": "it's a blended model of the confusion system,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-009", "start": 609.8, "end": 613.26, "text": "you know, where people looking to get into the manual system,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-010", "start": 613.62, "end": 615.72, "text": "they had to go for a series of examinations.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-011", "start": 615.78, "end": 617.2, "text": "Civil service examination.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-012", "start": 617.22, "end": 618.08, "text": "Yeah, sure, sure.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-013", "start": 618.26, "end": 621.36, "text": "To demonstrate the understanding of orthodoxy,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-014", "start": 621.36, "end": 624.32, "text": "political orthodoxy, and the ability to conform to the system.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-015", "start": 624.34, "end": 626.38, "text": "This is what we call the code system.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-016", "start": 626.66, "end": 628.06, "text": "This goes back thousands of years.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-017", "start": 628.86, "end": 629.86, "text": "So and as you say,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-018", "start": 629.94, "end": 630.96, "text": "it's a civil service examination.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-019", "start": 631.54, "end": 633.66, "text": "But, but starting in the 1950s,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-020", "start": 633.66, "end": 635.22, "text": "when China was beginning to build its economy,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-021", "start": 635.5, "end": 637.24, "text": "it also needed to create a proletariat.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-022", "start": 637.56, "end": 640.7, "text": "And that meant taking people from the countryside and teaching them", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0024-chunk-023", "start": 640.7, "end": 643.82, "text": "basic numeracy and literacy in order for them to become factory workers.", "word_count": 12 } ], "text_sha256": "e3dcc07b63670cff15bda0aff371a45185ca3d38978bcd02e9b34f59d3235383", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0024", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=588s", "time_label": "9:48", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0025", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is a good system. The second major objective is to make sure that the vast majority of your population has basic literacy and numeracy skills to be able to contribute to the socialist economy. And they did that very well. Second is to maintain political orthodoxy throughout the country. So you know, China is a strange place because it's a size of Europe. It's probably as diverse in terms of ethnicity as Europe. But if you go to Yunnan, you go to Tibet, or if you go to, you know, Harbin, everyone thinks the same. Everyone has the same ideas about how the system works, about the history, about the culture, about the history.", "word_count": 152, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-001", "start": 644.14, "end": 646.34, "text": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-002", "start": 646.34, "end": 648.46, "text": "a confusion system with a Stalinist system.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-003", "start": 648.8, "end": 650.66, "text": "The system has three major objectives.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-004", "start": 651.3, "end": 654.32, "text": "The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-005", "start": 654.32, "end": 654.32, "text": "system is a good system.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-006", "start": 654.32, "end": 654.86, "text": "The second major objective is to make sure that the vast majority", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-007", "start": 654.86, "end": 659.04, "text": "of your population has basic literacy and numeracy skills to be able", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-008", "start": 659.04, "end": 660.32, "text": "to contribute to the socialist economy.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-009", "start": 660.94, "end": 662.5, "text": "And they did that very well.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-010", "start": 662.7, "end": 665.9, "text": "Second is to maintain political orthodoxy throughout the country.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-011", "start": 666.32, "end": 668.98, "text": "So you know, China is a strange place because it's a size", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-012", "start": 668.98, "end": 669.32, "text": "of Europe.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-013", "start": 669.48, "end": 672.84, "text": "It's probably as diverse in terms of ethnicity as Europe.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-014", "start": 673.08, "end": 673.98, "text": "But if you go to Yunnan,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-015", "start": 674.16, "end": 675.98, "text": "you go to Tibet, or if you go to,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-016", "start": 676.06, "end": 679.68, "text": "you know, Harbin, everyone thinks the same.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-017", "start": 679.78, "end": 683.48, "text": "Everyone has the same ideas about how the system works,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-018", "start": 683.48, "end": 684.32, "text": "about the history, about the", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0025-chunk-019", "start": 684.32, "end": 684.4, "text": "culture, about the history.", "word_count": 4 } ], "text_sha256": "9397703b908e91fd4b58dfef9f3b5eebe049882848574af1cc8296b3a226dc6d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0025", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=644s", "time_label": "10:44", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0026", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented way possible. And that's why we created something called the Gaokao, the National College of Interest Examination. So every child, the moment he is born, he is being trained to do well on the Gaokao. So high -stakes testing, what we find is that because China has a high -stakes testing system, it's good to have a high -stakes testing system. It's good to have a high -stakes testing system, good at equipping as many people as possible with basic numeracy and literacy skills, because you're motivated to do so, and the system is in place to make sure that they learn these skills in order to pass tests. What we find, though, is that the same high -stakes testing system limits students in higher -order thinking skills like creativity, empathy, judgment, collaboration.", "word_count": 168, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-001", "start": 684.48, "end": 687.86, "text": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-002", "start": 687.86, "end": 690.16, "text": "orthodoxy throughout the country.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-003", "start": 690.56, "end": 694.98, "text": "And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-004", "start": 694.98, "end": 698.28, "text": "in the fairest and most merit -oriented way possible.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-005", "start": 698.52, "end": 701, "text": "And that's why we created something called the Gaokao,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-006", "start": 701.12, "end": 702.94, "text": "the National College of Interest Examination.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-007", "start": 703.2, "end": 706.56, "text": "So every child, the moment he is born,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-008", "start": 706.76, "end": 709.16, "text": "he is being trained to do well on the Gaokao.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-009", "start": 709.36, "end": 712.18, "text": "So high -stakes testing, what we find is that because China has", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-010", "start": 712.18, "end": 713.18, "text": "a high -stakes testing system,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-011", "start": 713.34, "end": 714.3, "text": "it's good to have a high -stakes testing system.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-012", "start": 714.3, "end": 714.3, "text": "It's good to have a high -stakes testing system,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-013", "start": 714.3, "end": 719.38, "text": "good at equipping as many people as possible with basic numeracy and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-014", "start": 719.38, "end": 721.8, "text": "literacy skills, because you're motivated to do so,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-015", "start": 722.04, "end": 725.02, "text": "and the system is in place to make sure that they learn", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-016", "start": 725.02, "end": 726.86, "text": "these skills in order to pass tests.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-017", "start": 727.24, "end": 730.68, "text": "What we find, though, is that the same high -stakes testing system", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-018", "start": 730.68, "end": 734.16, "text": "limits students in higher -order thinking skills like creativity,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0026-chunk-019", "start": 734.42, "end": 736.64, "text": "empathy, judgment, collaboration.", "word_count": 3 } ], "text_sha256": "85b6bbb0be54aab573eec691cde5ad8cd527230199085c12f608c5137c493a4f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0026", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=684s", "time_label": "11:24", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0027", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "And that's where China is most lacking right now.", "word_count": 9, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0027-chunk-001", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "text": "And that's where China is most lacking right now.", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "d1aaddd869ad00e500961bc60db6ab40742844ebb7555d8ebf1f2493dbc0fdb5", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0027", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=737s", "time_label": "12:17", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0028", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0028", "start": 740.52, "end": 778.38, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Right. I mean, that's what we always hear. I mean, that's anyone who does the first thing about Chinese pedagogy will point right away to the prevalence of this rote learning and the relative lack of critical thinking, like you were talking social interactive skills. We've already alluded to that. But, you know, we've been talking about this problem for decades, right? Sure. This has been something that we've been keenly aware of. I'm the parent of two primary school students, and my distinct sense is that resistance to any fundamental change to this isn't necessarily coming from the schools or the teachers or the Ministry of Education, but it may be something maybe more profound and maybe more interesting. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point, and it's something that's more inertial, which is from the parents themselves. Exactly, yeah. That's my impression, too.", "word_count": 151, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-001", "start": 740.52, "end": 742.52, "text": "Right. I mean, that's what we always hear.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-002", "start": 742.68, "end": 745, "text": "I mean, that's anyone who does the first thing about Chinese pedagogy", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-003", "start": 745, "end": 747.76, "text": "will point right away to the prevalence of this rote learning and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-004", "start": 747.76, "end": 749.06, "text": "the relative lack of critical thinking,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-005", "start": 749.16, "end": 750.8, "text": "like you were talking social interactive skills.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-006", "start": 751.3, "end": 752.58, "text": "We've already alluded to that.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-007", "start": 752.84, "end": 755.62, "text": "But, you know, we've been talking about this problem for decades,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-008", "start": 755.8, "end": 756, "text": "right? Sure.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-009", "start": 756.1, "end": 758.56, "text": "This has been something that we've been keenly aware of.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-010", "start": 758.76, "end": 760.88, "text": "I'm the parent of two primary school students,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-011", "start": 761, "end": 766.04, "text": "and my distinct sense is that resistance to any fundamental change to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-012", "start": 766.04, "end": 769.24, "text": "this isn't necessarily coming from the schools or the teachers or the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-013", "start": 769.24, "end": 773.38, "text": "Ministry of Education, but it may be something maybe more profound and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-014", "start": 773.38, "end": 774.1, "text": "maybe more interesting.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-015", "start": 774.1, "end": 774.1, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a good point.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-016", "start": 774.1, "end": 774.22, "text": "I think that's a good point,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-017", "start": 774.22, "end": 774.56, "text": "and it's something that's more inertial,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-018", "start": 774.64, "end": 776.66, "text": "which is from the parents themselves.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-019", "start": 776.92, "end": 777.52, "text": "Exactly, yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0028-chunk-020", "start": 777.56, "end": 778.38, "text": "That's my impression, too.", "word_count": 4 } ], "text_sha256": "69be55cc8600bffcea68b8ff0cdef6ee17b0f66c5c17614e56b632df093cbcf3", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0028", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=740s", "time_label": "12:20", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0029", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one of the first people who squawk is the parents because they're so concerned that their children do well on the test to get into college. That's paramount. And in fact, some schools will hesitate to make even basic curriculum changes changes that would encourage these kinds of things because they're going to get skepticism from the parents who are saying, you know, well, you know, I only have two more years and the kid has got to learn his STEM skills as much as he can.", "word_count": 127, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-001", "start": 778.54, "end": 780.12, "text": "You know, we always have this problem with,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-002", "start": 780.16, "end": 783.28, "text": "as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-003", "start": 783.28, "end": 789.42, "text": "suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-004", "start": 789.42, "end": 791.32, "text": "such a way as to encourage creativity,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-005", "start": 791.5, "end": 794.26, "text": "that one of the first people who squawk is the parents because", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-006", "start": 794.26, "end": 797.14, "text": "they're so concerned that their children do well on the test to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-007", "start": 797.14, "end": 797.7, "text": "get into college.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-008", "start": 798.18, "end": 799.08, "text": "That's paramount.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-009", "start": 799.2, "end": 802.36, "text": "And in fact, some schools will hesitate to make even basic curriculum", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-010", "start": 802.36, "end": 805.4, "text": "changes changes that would encourage these kinds of things because they're going", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-011", "start": 805.4, "end": 807.82, "text": "to get skepticism from the parents who are saying,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-012", "start": 807.86, "end": 808.62, "text": "you know, well, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-013", "start": 808.62, "end": 810.6, "text": "I only have two more years and the kid has got to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0029-chunk-014", "start": 810.6, "end": 813.36, "text": "learn his STEM skills as much as he can.", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "796320476623eea12f5e19c4aad134080b9c27bd4ac2fdac2e0b39a9368bad8d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0029", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=778s", "time_label": "12:58", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0030", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating education reform are basically the elite in education. So the universities, right, Peking University and TNOR University who believe that the alcohol is not producing the students necessary to do well in an academic setting and to do research because they lack critical thinking skills and scientific research skills. Top educators in China have been advocating for education reform ever since the days of Tsai Ing -Pei, right?", "word_count": 106, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-001", "start": 813.52, "end": 816, "text": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all?", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-002", "start": 816.42, "end": 819.26, "text": "You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-003", "start": 819.62, "end": 822.44, "text": "So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-004", "start": 822.44, "end": 825.64, "text": "are most advocating education reform are basically the elite in education.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-005", "start": 825.98, "end": 829.44, "text": "So the universities, right, Peking University and TNOR University who believe that", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-006", "start": 829.44, "end": 833, "text": "the alcohol is not producing the students necessary to do well in", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-007", "start": 833, "end": 837.08, "text": "an academic setting and to do research because they lack critical thinking", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-008", "start": 837.08, "end": 839.16, "text": "skills and scientific research skills.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-009", "start": 839.48, "end": 843, "text": "Top educators in China have been advocating for education reform ever since", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-010", "start": 843, "end": 844, "text": "the days of Tsai Ing -Pei,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0030-chunk-011", "start": 844.08, "end": 844.26, "text": "right?", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "ca09d2b04995712ddfdcb09fb2d3cbbf46dda774758e5993cec159abd9a02d38", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0030", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=813s", "time_label": "13:33", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0031", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0031", "start": 844.64, "end": 850.38, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Tsai Ing -Pei was the principal or he was the first principal of Peking University, right? Right.", "word_count": 17, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0031-chunk-001", "start": 844.64, "end": 848.1, "text": "Tsai Ing -Pei was the principal or he was the first principal", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0031-chunk-002", "start": 848.1, "end": 849.62, "text": "of Peking University, right?", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0031-chunk-003", "start": 849.98, "end": 850.38, "text": "Right.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "5523025d7c27f7c535b4c0dec98e6d75eb16c97f0efe510b10869184e5ac6348", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0031", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=844s", "time_label": "14:04", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0032", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So right now there's a real mismatch between what the economy needs, which are basically managers, designers, entrepreneurs, and what the education system is producing, which is basically a lot of accountants and computer programmers. So the political hierarchy is very concerned that if we don't change the education system, then China's economic development will stall, which is a paramount concern of the Communist Party. At the grassroots level, parents think that, I mean, they have a very simple, very simple explanation for what's going on. They think that the elite is trying to screw them. So there are three major problems in the Chinese education system that I see. The first major problem is that the Chinese education system, it's a monolithic socialist bureaucracy, which is top -down, and it's resistant to change.", "word_count": 168, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-001", "start": 850.46, "end": 851.96, "text": "And during the May 4th era.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-002", "start": 852.8, "end": 853.1, "text": "That's right.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-003", "start": 853.22, "end": 857.94, "text": "And the communist elite, people who run the economy,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-004", "start": 858.12, "end": 862.08, "text": "are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-005", "start": 862.08, "end": 864.3, "text": "to maintain China's economic development.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-006", "start": 864.64, "end": 867.26, "text": "So right now there's a real mismatch between what the economy needs,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-007", "start": 867.38, "end": 869.3, "text": "which are basically managers, designers,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-008", "start": 869.7, "end": 872.82, "text": "entrepreneurs, and what the education system is producing,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-009", "start": 872.96, "end": 875.64, "text": "which is basically a lot of accountants and computer programmers.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-010", "start": 875.94, "end": 880.6, "text": "So the political hierarchy is very concerned that if we don't change", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-011", "start": 880.6, "end": 883.4, "text": "the education system, then China's economic development will stall,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-012", "start": 883.6, "end": 885.8, "text": "which is a paramount concern of the Communist Party.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-013", "start": 886.06, "end": 888.36, "text": "At the grassroots level, parents think that,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-014", "start": 888.36, "end": 889.42, "text": "I mean, they have a very simple,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-015", "start": 889.74, "end": 890.72, "text": "very simple explanation for what's going on.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-016", "start": 890.82, "end": 893.52, "text": "They think that the elite is trying to screw them.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-017", "start": 893.86, "end": 897.82, "text": "So there are three major problems in the Chinese education system that", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-018", "start": 897.82, "end": 898.28, "text": "I see.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-019", "start": 898.42, "end": 902.68, "text": "The first major problem is that the Chinese education system,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-020", "start": 902.74, "end": 904.94, "text": "it's a monolithic socialist bureaucracy,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-021", "start": 905.28, "end": 905.66, "text": "which", "word_count": 1 }, { "id": "seg-0032-chunk-022", "start": 905.66, "end": 907.8, "text": "is top -down, and it's resistant to change.", "word_count": 8 } ], "text_sha256": "a53d02c0759ee24891659513e6d4d3dda41bbcaa7208527427853e3547ad3b6c", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0032", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=850s", "time_label": "14:10", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0033", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society that is very utilitarian, very resource -oriented. So they trust test scores, don't trust teacher recommendations, don't trust qualitative measures of a student's progress. They only trust test scores. It's a very utilitarian, very resource -oriented society. The other issue is the Chinese don't really trust institutions. There's a lack of civil society in China. There's a lack of institutional trust. So the idea of the Gaokao is that it bypasses institutions. It's a test score, right? So the test score, from a parent's perspective, is an objective and fair indicator of students' academic achievement and its ability to do well in school and in life.", "word_count": 142, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-001", "start": 908.08, "end": 912.28, "text": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-002", "start": 912.4, "end": 913.14, "text": "There's bureaucratic inertia.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-003", "start": 913.94, "end": 915.62, "text": "So that's one major problem.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-004", "start": 915.88, "end": 917.74, "text": "But then the other problems are cultural,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-005", "start": 918, "end": 919.26, "text": "which is that, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-006", "start": 919.28, "end": 922.82, "text": "China, it's very much a society that is very utilitarian,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-007", "start": 923.06, "end": 923.9, "text": "very resource -oriented.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-008", "start": 924.26, "end": 925.6, "text": "So they trust test scores,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-009", "start": 925.74, "end": 930.18, "text": "don't trust teacher recommendations, don't trust qualitative measures of a student's progress.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-010", "start": 930.52, "end": 931.42, "text": "They only trust test scores.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-011", "start": 931.52, "end": 934.22, "text": "It's a very utilitarian, very resource -oriented society.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-012", "start": 934.56, "end": 937.52, "text": "The other issue is the Chinese don't really trust institutions.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0033-chunk-013", "start": 937.9, "end": 939.52, "text": "There's a lack of civil society in China.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": 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"/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0033", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=908s", "time_label": "15:08", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0034", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0034", "start": 955.98, "end": 969.28, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Yeah, you mentioned that several times, the fact that the Gaokao, if they start it all over again, you're going to still come up with the Gaokao, because it's the most effective way to ensure fairness, given the fact that they're trying to achieve equality, which is everyone, no child is left behind.", "word_count": 53, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-001", "start": 955.98, "end": 957.32, "text": "Yeah, you mentioned that several times,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-002", "start": 957.42, "end": 958.62, "text": "the fact that the Gaokao,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-003", "start": 958.7, "end": 959.9, "text": "if they start it all over again,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-004", "start": 959.96, "end": 961.26, "text": "you're going to still come up with the Gaokao,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-005", "start": 961.36, "end": 963.94, "text": "because it's the most effective way to ensure fairness,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-006", "start": 964.16, "end": 967.08, "text": "given the fact that they're trying to achieve equality,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0034-chunk-007", "start": 967.38, "end": 969.28, "text": "which is everyone, no child is left behind.", "word_count": 8 } ], "text_sha256": "768242cc22d3f2f341d2021f32636d5867a640ae8923b3ae611fc878db5c7b34", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0034", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=955s", "time_label": "15:55", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0035", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's trying to test into these, these universities. So we have the Gaokao and it's very hard to change because parents think that, listen, if we take away the Gaokao, it's just going to be the elite monopolizing education for themselves. And that's all, all we're going to have. Yeah. If we don't have a test score, all that we're going to have is guanxi. And so if we are middle class or we're lower class, we're totally screwed.", "word_count": 113, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-001", "start": 969.5, "end": 972.44, "text": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-002", "start": 972.44, "end": 975.26, "text": "country, huge population with very limited education resources.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-003", "start": 975.8, "end": 978.36, "text": "Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-004", "start": 978.52, "end": 979.72, "text": "Everyone's trying to test into it.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-005", "start": 979.74, "end": 979.92, "text": "Everyone's trying to test into these,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-006", "start": 980.1, "end": 980.88, "text": "these universities.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-007", "start": 981.22, "end": 984.1, "text": "So we have the Gaokao and it's very hard to change because", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-008", "start": 984.1, "end": 986.86, "text": "parents think that, listen, if we take away the Gaokao,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-009", "start": 987.04, "end": 990.06, "text": "it's just going to be the elite monopolizing education for themselves.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-010", "start": 990.4, "end": 992.16, "text": "And that's all, all we're going to have.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-011", "start": 992.24, "end": 994, "text": "Yeah. If we don't have a test score,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-012", "start": 994.1, "end": 995.36, "text": "all that we're going to have is guanxi.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-013", "start": 995.48, "end": 998.54, "text": "And so if we are middle class or we're lower class,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0035-chunk-014", "start": 998.84, "end": 999.66, "text": "we're totally screwed.", "word_count": 3 } ], "text_sha256": "7134e7c7a8eb98ec3705688484f6743b19dee40bd2beb5b9f43ca85e62069f9f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0035", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=969s", "time_label": "16:09", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0036", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want the Gaokao and they're very, they want their kids to test the Gaokao. The other are the parents that are, that are also disenchanted with the education system and they have the wealth and the means to just get the hell out. And they just want to say, I just went out of the system. My kid's not even going to take the Gaokao and we're going to educate him in Canada. So you have these two parents, one that are sort of, sort of trying to reinforce the Gaokao and the others that are saying we're out of here.", "word_count": 138, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-001", "start": 999.98, "end": 1001.24, "text": "Can I point out something with,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-002", "start": 1001.32, "end": 1002.44, "text": "along the subject of parents,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-003", "start": 1002.62, "end": 1005.04, "text": "there's two contradictory groups of parents.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-004", "start": 1005.22, "end": 1007.28, "text": "One of the ones that we just were talking about that,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-005", "start": 1007.28, "end": 1008.96, "text": "that say, you know, they're very test oriented.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-006", "start": 1009.14, "end": 1010.6, "text": "They want the Gaokao and they're very,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-007", "start": 1010.62, "end": 1012.04, "text": "they want their kids to test the Gaokao.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-008", "start": 1012.12, "end": 1013.36, "text": "The other are the parents that are,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-009", "start": 1013.36, "end": 1017.02, "text": "that are also disenchanted with the education system and they have the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-010", "start": 1017.02, "end": 1018.92, "text": "wealth and the means to just get the hell out.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-011", "start": 1019.12, "end": 1020.42, "text": "And they just want to say,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-012", "start": 1020.5, "end": 1021.6, "text": "I just went out of the system.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-013", "start": 1021.66, "end": 1023.44, "text": "My kid's not even going to take the Gaokao and we're going", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-014", "start": 1023.44, "end": 1024.4, "text": "to educate him in Canada.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-015", "start": 1024.82, "end": 1025.98, "text": "So you have these two parents,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-016", "start": 1026.06, "end": 1026.72, "text": "one that are sort of,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-017", "start": 1026.72, "end": 1029.24, "text": "sort of trying to reinforce the Gaokao and the others that are", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0036-chunk-018", "start": 1029.24, "end": 1029.98, "text": "saying we're out of here.", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "f6f3b0932379b0cfa47afdb73d3576a5feab2179c9688e9e82eb56131909ac88", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0036", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=999s", "time_label": "16:39", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0037", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy with the system as it is because they think that the Gaokao is really the only mechanism of social mobility in China right now. Right. And you have a minority, but a very growing and very powerful minority of parents who are disgusted with the test oriented, high stakes testing system that we have nowadays in China. So as David says, they're sending their kid to America for college. You know, the Institute of International Education released its open, open, open doors policy, open doors report a few months ago. And it said that over 20%. You know, 400,000 Chinese are now studying in American institutes of higher learning. This does not include, by the way, high school students. The major trend right now is for parents to send their kids to America for high school.", "word_count": 176, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-001", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1032.06, "text": "So it's kind of a weird situation.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-002", "start": 1032.3, "end": 1035.12, "text": "Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-003", "start": 1035.2, "end": 1036.96, "text": "There are now two major factions of parents.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-004", "start": 1037.08, "end": 1037.86, "text": "The majority, of course.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-005", "start": 1037.86, "end": 1040.16, "text": "Of course, are those who are probably happy with the system as", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-006", "start": 1040.16, "end": 1043.64, "text": "it is because they think that the Gaokao is really the only", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-007", "start": 1043.64, "end": 1045.88, "text": "mechanism of social mobility in China right now.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-008", "start": 1045.96, "end": 1047.22, "text": "Right. And you have a minority,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-009", "start": 1047.46, "end": 1050.56, "text": "but a very growing and very powerful minority of parents who are", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-010", "start": 1050.56, "end": 1052.86, "text": "disgusted with the test oriented,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-011", "start": 1053.02, "end": 1055.6, "text": "high stakes testing system that we have nowadays in China.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-012", "start": 1055.68, "end": 1059.04, "text": "So as David says, they're sending their kid to America for college.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-013", "start": 1059.24, "end": 1062.8, "text": "You know, the Institute of International Education released its open,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-014", "start": 1062.8, "end": 1066.66, "text": "open, open doors policy, open doors report a few months ago.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-015", "start": 1066.78, "end": 1067.84, "text": "And it said that over 20%.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-016", "start": 1067.86, "end": 1071.62, "text": "You know, 400,000 Chinese are now studying in American institutes of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-017", "start": 1071.62, "end": 1072.24, "text": "higher learning.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-018", "start": 1072.48, "end": 1074, "text": "This does not include, by the way,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-019", "start": 1074.06, "end": 1075, "text": "high school students.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-020", "start": 1075.14, "end": 1075.34, "text": "The", "word_count": 1 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-021", "start": 1075.34, "end": 1078.88, "text": "major trend right now is for parents to send their kids to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0037-chunk-022", "start": 1078.88, "end": 1079.84, "text": "America for high school.", "word_count": 4 } ], "text_sha256": "d5278abc2bda9f8e0a2b52d43a16c0a6ed887957191c5f4dd19eff036553b87e", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0037", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1030s", "time_label": "17:10", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0038", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the problem with this is that because they're voting with their feet, their voice, they're not actually in China advocating for education reform. So there's nobody here to fight the virus.", "word_count": 68, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-001", "start": 1080, "end": 1081.68, "text": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-002", "start": 1081.84, "end": 1084.52, "text": "A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-003", "start": 1084.64, "end": 1085.6, "text": "to Canada, to New Zealand.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-004", "start": 1085.94, "end": 1087.84, "text": "Just for purposes of educating their children.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-005", "start": 1088.08, "end": 1090.08, "text": "Exactly. So this is a major issue.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-006", "start": 1090.3, "end": 1092.88, "text": "But the problem with this is that because they're voting with their", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-007", "start": 1092.88, "end": 1096.62, "text": "feet, their voice, they're not actually in China advocating for education reform.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0038-chunk-008", "start": 1096.9, "end": 1097.84, "text": "So there's nobody here to fight the virus.", "word_count": 8 } ], "text_sha256": "028c36a6c151d393da516e8dd14c989cab2460ccc04acc4fefe4859df18b208a", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0038", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1080s", "time_label": "18:00", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0039", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0039", "start": 1097.86, "end": 1134.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "There's nobody here to fight the fight now. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. I mean, I was going to point that out. Exactly. That's a really difficult conundrum then. You talked though about one of the problems being the monolithic Ministry of Education and the whole education apparatus. Are they not persuaded by what the elites, the educators at Tsinghua and Beida are saying to them about the need to create a new, I mean, because every time I read a pronouncement from the Ministry of Education, it seems to ring exactly like that. They talk about critical thinking skills. They talk about the need to move beyond. Just rote learning, everything that I've ever seen. It seems like the Ministry of Education is behind the idea of reform.", "word_count": 129, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-001", "start": 1097.86, "end": 1098.24, "text": "There's nobody here to fight the fight now.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-002", "start": 1098.32, "end": 1099.32, "text": "Exactly. Exactly.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-003", "start": 1099.32, "end": 1100.08, "text": "That's the problem.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-004", "start": 1100.22, "end": 1101.18, "text": "I mean, I was going to point that out.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-005", "start": 1101.32, "end": 1103.92, "text": "Exactly. That's a really difficult conundrum then.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-006", "start": 1104.08, "end": 1108.48, "text": "You talked though about one of the problems being the monolithic Ministry", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-007", "start": 1108.48, "end": 1110.38, "text": "of Education and the whole education apparatus.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-008", "start": 1110.96, "end": 1114.04, "text": "Are they not persuaded by what the elites,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-009", "start": 1114.24, "end": 1117.68, "text": "the educators at Tsinghua and Beida are saying to them about the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-010", "start": 1117.68, "end": 1119.14, "text": "need to create a new,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-011", "start": 1119.2, "end": 1121.58, "text": "I mean, because every time I read a pronouncement from the Ministry", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-012", "start": 1121.58, "end": 1123.46, "text": "of Education, it seems to ring exactly like that.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-013", "start": 1123.48, "end": 1125.14, "text": "They talk about critical thinking skills.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-014", "start": 1125.24, "end": 1127.76, "text": "They talk about the need to move beyond.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-015", "start": 1127.76, "end": 1130.8, "text": "Just rote learning, everything that I've ever seen.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-016", "start": 1130.88, "end": 1134.46, "text": "It seems like the Ministry of Education is behind the idea of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0039-chunk-017", "start": 1134.46, "end": 1134.7, "text": "reform.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "89df10db528743077a403c3d26667ab0e9551fe94e39948bcbd38282d6e1bccb", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0039", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1097s", "time_label": "18:17", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0040", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high school principals in Shanghai or Beijing. They all talk about education reform and the need to lessen the pressure on kids. But, you know, they do nothing. And they just focus on tests after you leave. So they have this spiel that they perfected for, like, you know, visit delegations from, you know, America or from the West and, you know, for reporters and for, you know, Chinese media. But what they do in practice is still the same old, same old. Okay. So we have you here.", "word_count": 122, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-001", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1138.72, "text": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-002", "start": 1138.84, "end": 1140.3, "text": "So they're very good at,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-003", "start": 1140.32, "end": 1143.38, "text": "you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-004", "start": 1143.38, "end": 1146.36, "text": "different. So you visit a lot of high school principals in Shanghai", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-005", "start": 1146.36, "end": 1147.02, "text": "or Beijing.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-006", "start": 1147.32, "end": 1151.46, "text": "They all talk about education reform and the need to lessen the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-007", "start": 1151.46, "end": 1152.42, "text": "pressure on kids.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-008", "start": 1152.78, "end": 1154.68, "text": "But, you know, they do nothing.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-009", "start": 1154.72, "end": 1157.64, "text": "And they just focus on tests after you leave.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-010", "start": 1157.76, "end": 1160.44, "text": "So they have this spiel that they perfected for,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-011", "start": 1160.48, "end": 1162.88, "text": "like, you know, visit delegations from,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-012", "start": 1162.92, "end": 1166, "text": "you know, America or from the West and,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-013", "start": 1166, "end": 1168.68, "text": "you know, for reporters and for,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-014", "start": 1168.76, "end": 1169.88, "text": "you know, Chinese media.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-015", "start": 1170.34, "end": 1172.7, "text": "But what they do in practice is still the same old,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-016", "start": 1172.72, "end": 1173.12, "text": "same old.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0040-chunk-017", "start": 1173.24, "end": 1174.48, "text": "Okay. So we have you here.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "9543636cfc0503d4cf2e5daf244cbe8c413a81354b8c0da016ec2628ffa36251", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0040", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1134s", "time_label": "18:54", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0041", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1194.92, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "You're a noted educational reform advocate. What's your prescription? I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here, right? But what's your actual, what do you think are actionable steps that China can take? To free itself from these sort of, you know, the fetters of this antiquated pedagogical system?", "word_count": 51, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-001", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1176.74, "text": "You're a noted educational reform advocate.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-002", "start": 1177.1, "end": 1178.52, "text": "What's your prescription?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-003", "start": 1178.72, "end": 1181.4, "text": "I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-004", "start": 1181.48, "end": 1182.7, "text": "right? But what's your actual,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-005", "start": 1182.9, "end": 1187.66, "text": "what do you think are actionable steps that China can take?", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-006", "start": 1187.66, "end": 1191.74, "text": "To free itself from these sort of,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0041-chunk-007", "start": 1191.74, "end": 1194.92, "text": "you know, the fetters of this antiquated pedagogical system?", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "9c35c3d6549855b9812efc41ee1bcb5fe283e3354144322a586aa6e63ce39f81", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0041", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1174s", "time_label": "19:34", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0042", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed at him that they devised the most cruel punishment they could think of. And so Sisyphus was condemned for all of eternity to roll a boulder up a hill. Yeah.", "word_count": 74, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-001", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1197.66, "text": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-002", "start": 1197.66, "end": 1199.74, "text": "The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-003", "start": 1200.02, "end": 1204.8, "text": "Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-004", "start": 1204.8, "end": 1206.62, "text": "this Greek king who offended the gods.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-005", "start": 1206.82, "end": 1212.42, "text": "So the gods became so pissed at him that they devised the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-006", "start": 1212.42, "end": 1214.46, "text": "most cruel punishment they could think of.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-007", "start": 1214.46, "end": 1218.34, "text": "And so Sisyphus was condemned for all of eternity to roll a", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-008", "start": 1218.34, "end": 1218.96, "text": "boulder up a hill.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0042-chunk-009", "start": 1219.08, "end": 1219.28, "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "d39e80dffcd863a5b12a6b0db80f343cbfe9593ca07cecab755801c2a55e3416", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0042", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1195s", "time_label": "19:55", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0043", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0043", "start": 1219.36, "end": 1220.34, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "We're all familiar with that.", "word_count": 5, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0043-chunk-001", "start": 1219.36, "end": 1220.34, "text": "We're all familiar with that.", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "aecf748b273137e5183b38f1ed4fec8cfcc51db03868991577c97f22b823bd36", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0043", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1219s", "time_label": "20:19", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0044", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is the same thing. It's a Sisyphean struggle. It's, it could possibly be an impossible thing because education, remember, it is linked to so many other areas, politics, culture, society, all linked to education. So.", "word_count": 75, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-001", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1222.36, "text": "And the boulder would just come right down after,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-002", "start": 1222.4, "end": 1223.54, "text": "you know, you roll up the hill.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-003", "start": 1223.64, "end": 1224.74, "text": "So it was a very futile,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-004", "start": 1224.74, "end": 1225.72, "text": "eternal task.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-005", "start": 1226, "end": 1227.78, "text": "And you can make the argument that Chinese education system,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-006", "start": 1227.88, "end": 1229.6, "text": "reforming the system here is a,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-007", "start": 1229.6, "end": 1230.7, "text": "is the same thing.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-008", "start": 1230.76, "end": 1231.56, "text": "It's a Sisyphean struggle.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-009", "start": 1231.84, "end": 1235.2, "text": "It's, it could possibly be an impossible thing because education,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-010", "start": 1235.38, "end": 1238.08, "text": "remember, it is linked to so many other areas,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-011", "start": 1238.18, "end": 1241.26, "text": "politics, culture, society, all linked to education.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0044-chunk-012", "start": 1241.92, "end": 1242.32, "text": "So.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "3a573a18dbf87893bb2a175642ec75e1b1cca85a4387c09e1d9fa54c95c8fd2b", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0044", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1220s", "time_label": "20:20", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0045", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0045", "start": 1242.38, "end": 1249.6, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "I take it. I take it you're not ready to throw in the towel. I mean, this is your, your, this is what you do, right? I mean, clearly you must believe that there's something to be done. Sure.", "word_count": 39, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-001", "start": 1242.38, "end": 1243.24, "text": "I take it.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-002", "start": 1243.24, "end": 1244.48, "text": "I take it you're not ready to throw in the towel.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-003", "start": 1244.6, "end": 1245.06, "text": "I mean, this is your,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-004", "start": 1245.12, "end": 1246.16, "text": "your, this is what you do,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-005", "start": 1246.24, "end": 1248.82, "text": "right? I mean, clearly you must believe that there's something to be", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0045-chunk-006", "start": 1248.82, "end": 1249.6, "text": "done. Sure.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "78f9f3d7b323932e1424d8a33f58f7ff4de8497090bc9faa2d9bc4f1f58899c2", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0045", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1242s", "time_label": "20:42", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0046", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism. So right now China is very much an insular society. And so I think making the schools more open to criticism and to new ideas. It's the first major initiative that we have to focus on. Second is diversity. So as, as I said, in China right now, it's a very monolithic school system where every school is the same. It's amazing because you go to Yunnan, which, you know, is a very poor rural area of China, very hilly. And Beijing, if you look at the textbooks, it's very similar. The, the pedagogy, the teaching style, all very similar. Sure. And that's not appropriate for, for China. So, so basically how do we create more diversity in education? Well, first of all, the,", "word_count": 160, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-001", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1254.58, "text": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-002", "start": 1254.58, "end": 1256.9, "text": "a creative and innovative culture in education.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-003", "start": 1257.24, "end": 1259.32, "text": "And that requires three things.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-004", "start": 1259.42, "end": 1260.14, "text": "One is openness.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-005", "start": 1260.32, "end": 1261.68, "text": "The openness to new ideas.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-006", "start": 1261.9, "end": 1263.5, "text": "The openness to criticism.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-007", "start": 1263.86, "end": 1267.32, "text": "So right now China is very much an insular society.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-008", "start": 1267.66, "end": 1272.14, "text": "And so I think making the schools more open to criticism and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-009", "start": 1272.14, "end": 1272.66, "text": "to new ideas.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-010", "start": 1272.66, "end": 1276.26, "text": "It's the first major initiative that we have to focus on.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-011", "start": 1276.42, "end": 1277.38, "text": "Second is diversity.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-012", "start": 1277.76, "end": 1279.3, "text": "So as, as I said,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-013", "start": 1279.42, "end": 1282.44, "text": "in China right now, it's a very monolithic school system where every", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-014", "start": 1282.44, "end": 1283.62, "text": "school is the same.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-015", "start": 1283.72, "end": 1285.1, "text": "It's amazing because you go to Yunnan,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-016", "start": 1285.28, "end": 1288.3, "text": "which, you know, is a very poor rural area of China,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-017", "start": 1288.4, "end": 1288.9, "text": "very hilly.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-018", "start": 1288.98, "end": 1290.96, "text": "And Beijing, if you look at the textbooks,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-019", "start": 1291.18, "end": 1291.84, "text": "it's very similar.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-020", "start": 1291.94, "end": 1294.72, "text": "The, the pedagogy, the teaching style,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-021", "start": 1294.78, "end": 1295.58, "text": "all very similar.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-022", "start": 1295.68, "end": 1297.64, "text": "Sure. And that's not appropriate for,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-023", "start": 1297.72, "end": 1298.26, "text": "for China.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-024", "start": 1298.44, "end": 1302.64, "text": "So, so basically how do we create more diversity in education?", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0046-chunk-025", "start": 1302.64, "end": 1302.9, "text": "Well, first of all, the,", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "c1ef802eb7d105b6842df32eeab8493c07a03d334fb56cb3af17443b4e62aac4", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0046", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1249s", "time_label": "20:49", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0047", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then some of the ideas will stick. So the only way for China to progress and build an education system that's right for, for itself is not to import, like, the advanced placement or international backward curriculum. And basically to focus on empowering a new generation. And we need a new generation of educators to take risks and discover a formula that works right for their local schools.", "word_count": 107, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-001", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1304.04, "text": "the school system in China.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-002", "start": 1304.18, "end": 1307, "text": "And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-003", "start": 1307.14, "end": 1310, "text": "To basically empower principals to try new things.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-004", "start": 1310.28, "end": 1312.46, "text": "And most of the time,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-005", "start": 1312.52, "end": 1315.28, "text": "these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-006", "start": 1315.46, "end": 1317.2, "text": "But then some of the ideas will stick.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-007", "start": 1317.4, "end": 1321.76, "text": "So the only way for China to progress and build an education", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-008", "start": 1321.76, "end": 1325, "text": "system that's right for, for itself is not to import,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-009", "start": 1325.24, "end": 1328.34, "text": "like, the advanced placement or international backward curriculum.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-010", "start": 1328.5, "end": 1332.62, "text": "And basically to focus on empowering a new generation.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-011", "start": 1332.64, "end": 1334.9, "text": "And we need a new generation of educators to take risks and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0047-chunk-012", "start": 1334.9, "end": 1338.06, "text": "discover a formula that works right for their local schools.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "460baa16d72022c5488c9a164b86d9c3edb1c12dc04e561c00464cf43ffc0150", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0047", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1302s", "time_label": "21:42", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0048", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0048", "start": 1338.28, "end": 1351.06, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "I mean, pardon me, but I mean, I, I, well, I agree that these are, are, are, are all things that are necessary to be done. I, they don't feel to me like bite -size pieces that we could take. I mean, it feels like boiling the ocean to me. It feels like, I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, you know.", "word_count": 61, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-001", "start": 1338.28, "end": 1339.36, "text": "I mean, pardon me, but I mean,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-002", "start": 1339.42, "end": 1340.94, "text": "I, I, well, I agree that these are,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-003", "start": 1340.94, "end": 1343.72, "text": "are, are, are all things that are necessary to be done.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-004", "start": 1343.78, "end": 1346.82, "text": "I, they don't feel to me like bite -size pieces that we", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-005", "start": 1346.82, "end": 1347.1, "text": "could take.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-006", "start": 1347.22, "end": 1348.98, "text": "I mean, it feels like boiling the ocean to me.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-007", "start": 1349.02, "end": 1349.74, "text": "It feels like, I mean,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0048-chunk-008", "start": 1349.74, "end": 1351.06, "text": "you're, you're, you're, you're, you know.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "9b54046cadbd1211c74c5847ce3f7af77017c7d85cc361c2074700ee28236249", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0048", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1338s", "time_label": "22:18", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0049", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0049", "start": 1351.2, "end": 1353.92, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Individual Sisyphean tasks in themselves almost.", "word_count": 6, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0049-chunk-001", "start": 1351.2, "end": 1353.92, "text": "Individual Sisyphean tasks in themselves almost.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "febe1bd6ce8f6ce69fb4db54367b42d66a1d92de3521192c08934f64fd3ad305", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0049", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1351s", "time_label": "22:31", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0050", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0050", "start": 1354.04, "end": 1367.22, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Exactly. They, they, they don't feel to me like, I mean, I, I would look at that and feel even a greater sense of futility. Like, these are the only things that, I mean, getting from A to B seems like a, a, a, a My God, it's, it's. Well, listen. It's, you're talking about cultural change.", "word_count": 57, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-001", "start": 1354.04, "end": 1356.5, "text": "Exactly. They, they, they don't feel to me like,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-002", "start": 1356.56, "end": 1358.58, "text": "I mean, I, I would look at that and feel even a", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-003", "start": 1358.58, "end": 1359.46, "text": "greater sense of futility.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-004", "start": 1359.62, "end": 1360.7, "text": "Like, these are the only things that,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-005", "start": 1360.72, "end": 1362.62, "text": "I mean, getting from A to B seems like a,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-006", "start": 1362.62, "end": 1363.44, "text": "a, a, a My God,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-007", "start": 1363.56, "end": 1364.16, "text": "it's, it's.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-008", "start": 1364.28, "end": 1365.06, "text": "Well, listen.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0050-chunk-009", "start": 1365.32, "end": 1367.22, "text": "It's, you're talking about cultural change.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "6bf9b67f16d66a204babeee97751181239190c929c7dce801f3b1e4efbb520de", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0050", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1354s", "time_label": "22:34", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0051", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very quickly. Yeah. And the idea is that, you know, if you don't like China right now, come back in five years' time. It's completely different. Yeah. I've seen China, you know, go through these generational leaps in my 15, 15 years here. I was the guy back in 2000, 2001, working as a journalist saying that, you know, you know, China was going to collapse. Boy, was I wrong. I mean, like, China is not, the world has collapsed. China is still, you know, moving ahead. So, I think that right now, given the state of, state of things in China, things do look impossible. 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But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within this very, very, very, very, very, very powerful education bureaucracy in place today.", "word_count": 51, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-001", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1412.76, "text": "So, I think that in the coming years,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-002", "start": 1412.9, "end": 1413.88, "text": "we're going to see new opportunities.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-003", "start": 1414.2, "end": 1416.74, "text": "But, but again, I think the former remains the same,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-004", "start": 1416.8, "end": 1417.38, "text": "which is like, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-005", "start": 1417.38, "end": 1419.56, "text": "we have to create space for experimentation,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-006", "start": 1419.76, "end": 1422.6, "text": "innovation within this very, very,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0052-chunk-007", "start": 1422.6, "end": 1424.94, "text": "very, very, very, very powerful education bureaucracy in place today.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "17293853aa80308d0ea2bc0f40d8b795a00cfd4258efe4b69a6f326b33154af2", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0052", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1410s", "time_label": "23:30", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0053", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0053", "start": 1425.08, "end": 1463.84, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Let, let me just point out also that, that in a lot of cases, what's happening is because the, the system is so entrenched, there's actually lots of movement in other areas that's forcing change. And you can comment better than I can on some of them. But, but for, for example, one of them is gaokao reform, where they're talking about adjusting the, the percentages or the ratios. You know, that's one thing. The other thing is there's, there's new types of schools forming up, you know. Yeah, yeah. There's experimental schools. There, there are also, there are also certain universities, and I, and the name is escaping me at the moment, but there's some universities that are actually choosing to get out of the accreditation system. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So that they are not subject to the, they're not part of the unified.", "word_count": 145, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-001", "start": 1425.08, "end": 1426.9, "text": "Let, let me just point out also that,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-002", "start": 1426.9, "end": 1428.14, "text": "that in a lot of cases,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-003", "start": 1428.22, "end": 1429.84, "text": "what's happening is because the,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-004", "start": 1429.88, "end": 1431, "text": "the system is so entrenched,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-005", "start": 1431.1, "end": 1434.2, "text": "there's actually lots of movement in other areas that's forcing change.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-006", "start": 1434.5, "end": 1436.68, "text": "And you can comment better than I can on some of them.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-007", "start": 1436.74, "end": 1437.94, "text": "But, but for, for example,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-008", "start": 1437.94, "end": 1439.84, "text": "one of them is gaokao reform,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-009", "start": 1440, "end": 1441.6, "text": "where they're talking about adjusting the,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-010", "start": 1441.62, "end": 1443.18, "text": "the percentages or the ratios.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-011", "start": 1443.34, "end": 1444.32, "text": "You know, that's one thing.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-012", "start": 1444.38, "end": 1445.7, "text": "The other thing is there's,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-013", "start": 1445.7, "end": 1448.02, "text": "there's new types of schools forming up,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-014", "start": 1448.02, "end": 1448.8, "text": "you know.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-015", "start": 1449.16, "end": 1450.38, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-016", "start": 1450.5, "end": 1451.54, "text": "There's experimental schools.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-017", "start": 1451.54, "end": 1454.06, "text": "There, there are also, there are also certain universities,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-018", "start": 1454.18, "end": 1456.16, "text": "and I, and the name is escaping me at the moment,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-019", "start": 1456.26, "end": 1459.5, "text": "but there's some universities that are actually choosing to get out of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-020", "start": 1459.5, "end": 1460.44, "text": "the accreditation system.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-021", "start": 1460.86, "end": 1460.9, "text": "Yes, absolutely.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0053-chunk-022", "start": 1460.9, "end": 1462.74, "text": "Absolutely. 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Shixin, you, you used to work,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0054-chunk-002", "start": 1465.64, "end": 1468.8, "text": "in fact, at, at Shenzhen at the experimental school there.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0054-chunk-003", "start": 1468.9, "end": 1471.46, "text": "Tell, tell us what these experimental schools are and what's being done.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0054-chunk-004", "start": 1471.46, "end": 1471.48, "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "df44a6ec2ba311cbda06dd6df35d36d512fde11c2a945f3cee2c3cec349e592d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0054", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1464s", "time_label": "24:24", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0055", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes testing system into a more progressive model. And so, as David was saying, you have many trends and you have many examples of progressive education reform. Certainly, the Southern Institute of Science and Technology in Shenzhen. That's the one I'm thinking of. Yes. Right. Is an example of this. Exactly. Where the headmaster, the founding principal, is one of China's most progressive educators. Yes. He was formerly head of the Norvin School of Science and Technology. He, he went down to Shenzhen, invited by the Shenzhen government to open his own university. And what makes the school special is that it bypasses Gaokao. Yeah. It, it emits students based on other criteria, more holistic criteria, as opposed to just one number.", "word_count": 160, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-001", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1473.76, "text": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-002", "start": 1473.94, "end": 1475.28, "text": "In 2010, the prime minister,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-003", "start": 1475.44, "end": 1479.36, "text": "Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-004", "start": 1479.36, "end": 1481.34, "text": "years. Plans to shift China from,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-005", "start": 1481.54, "end": 1485.56, "text": "you know, a high -stakes testing system into a more progressive model.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-006", "start": 1486.42, "end": 1488.1, "text": "And so, as David was saying,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-007", "start": 1488.24, "end": 1492.16, "text": "you have many trends and you have many examples of progressive education", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-008", "start": 1492.16, "end": 1497.76, "text": "reform. Certainly, the Southern Institute of Science and Technology in Shenzhen.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-009", "start": 1497.76, "end": 1498.72, "text": "That's the one I'm thinking of.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0055-chunk-010", "start": 1498.74, "end": 1499.46, "text": "Yes. 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We have a lot of private schools opening in China. Keystone Academy, Y.K. Pao School in Shanghai. We have a lot of these new, exciting private schools based on a Western progressive pedagogical model geared towards Chinese students. And then you have Peking and Tsinghua Universities, which have been advocating for reform in the Gaokao missions for the longest time. You know, the 100 other professors wrote an open letter to the president of China saying that, look, if we are going to thrive as a global research institution, we need to have control over emissions. 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We need more critical thinkers. We need more creative individuals who will do very well in a, in a lab, in a classroom, asking questions and questioning authority. 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Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right.", "word_count": 30, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0058-chunk-001", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1593.12, "text": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0058-chunk-002", "start": 1593.12, "end": 1594.26, "text": "some actual research?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0058-chunk-003", "start": 1594.28, "end": 1596.7, "text": "Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants?", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0058-chunk-004", "start": 1596.9, "end": 1598.06, "text": "Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that?", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0058-chunk-005", "start": 1598.06, "end": 1598.32, "text": "Right.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "0b4e08c1cda3b32a371063679bb82ed5c292d3d633d1711f622617bdaec867a7", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0058", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1590s", "time_label": "26:30", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0059", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifying or the requirements for emissions. So looking at interviews, but also looking at your academic achievements in high school, GPA. There's, there's all sorts of ideas being floated, floated about. But again, the major issue is that people don't really trust the government. The people really don't trust institutions to make reforms that reflect the needs of society. The people think that, okay, it's just the elite trying to, trying to monopolize education for themselves. The elite is going to screw us over again if we trust them. So there's all these ideas being, you know, floated around. And a lot of these ideas are very interesting and very good ideas. 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The people really don't trust institutions to make reforms that reflect", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-013", "start": 1632.84, "end": 1633.92, "text": "the needs of society.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-014", "start": 1634.28, "end": 1635.74, "text": "The people think that, okay,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-015", "start": 1635.9, "end": 1636.86, "text": "it's just the elite trying to,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-016", "start": 1636.86, "end": 1638.46, "text": "trying to monopolize education for themselves.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-017", "start": 1638.7, "end": 1640.6, "text": "The elite is going to screw us over again if we trust", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-018", "start": 1640.6, "end": 1643.9, "text": "them. 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It's just like, what's the public appetite for", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0059-chunk-022", "start": 1651.44, "end": 1651.828, "text": "change?", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "7c22a7cad4994cb892a84db92a2969309bb234be07776ca428fb824e52a69e9f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0059", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1598s", "time_label": "26:38", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0060", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these young Chinese going abroad and getting a global education. And then Let's talk about that.", "word_count": 53, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-001", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1655.32, "text": "And And that question isn't being settled right now.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-002", "start": 1655.6, "end": 1657.52, "text": "The other major trend that we're seeing,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-003", "start": 1657.72, "end": 1659.44, "text": "and David alluded to this much earlier,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-004", "start": 1659.58, "end": 1660.16, "text": "is study abroad.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-005", "start": 1660.44, "end": 1663.96, "text": "Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-006", "start": 1663.96, "end": 1667.68, "text": "young Chinese going abroad and getting a global education.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0060-chunk-007", "start": 1668.02, "end": 1669.4, "text": "And then Let's talk about that.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "8a3a99554d1fc35f5c2bb03dfde2ed4baec0656867b00828971e67baea95294c", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0060", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1651s", "time_label": "27:31", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0061", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,000 students. Sure. Including secondary and post -secondary. Sure. That's an enormous number.", "word_count": 48, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-001", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1670.58, "text": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-002", "start": 1670.62, "end": 1674.42, "text": "You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-003", "start": 1674.42, "end": 1677.32, "text": "secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-004", "start": 1677.54, "end": 1679.98, "text": "I've seen another figure of just last year,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-005", "start": 1680, "end": 1681.78, "text": "235,000 students.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-006", "start": 1681.82, "end": 1684.48, "text": "Sure. Including secondary and post -secondary.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0061-chunk-007", "start": 1684.5, "end": 1686.1, "text": "Sure. That's an enormous number.", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "15f8da747de9c33127d642f409a259b65d52b5cc4d49fc47de54f0276a444e8d", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0061", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1669s", "time_label": "27:49", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0062", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1691.12, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year. Routinely.", "word_count": 11, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0062-chunk-001", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1689.9, "text": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0062-chunk-002", "start": 1690.6, "end": 1691.12, "text": "Routinely.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "067993f38fec760c06ed487b1821fbced1a628abbf25b6c5fc33143cc8ef5468", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0062", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1686s", "time_label": "28:06", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0063", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1741.92, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "What's really interesting to me, though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being, you know, intimately acquainted with many others, is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated, you know, it's been the same decade after decade after decade, stretching back to the 30s and 40s. I find often, you know, it's been the same. I mean, people like me who were born in the United States still have that same kind of approach and almost resistance to that challenge to authority, the so -called, I hate the phrase, but thinking out of the box or Sure. What's going on here? I mean, is there something sort of more deeply cultural and certainly not genetic, but you actually have an interesting personal experience, right? I mean, you were born in China, but you moved to Canada when you were quite young. Is that correct? Mm -hmm. And you ended up attending Yale and", "word_count": 160, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-001", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1693.32, "text": "What's really interesting to me,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-002", "start": 1693.36, "end": 1696.48, "text": "though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-003", "start": 1696.56, "end": 1698.48, "text": "you know, intimately acquainted with many others,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-004", "start": 1698.68, "end": 1705.04, "text": "is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-005", "start": 1705.1, "end": 1708.68, "text": "you know, it's been the same decade after decade after decade,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-006", "start": 1708.78, "end": 1710.5, "text": "stretching back to the 30s and 40s.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-007", "start": 1710.5, "end": 1712.08, "text": "I find often, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-008", "start": 1712.08, "end": 1712.08, "text": "it's been the same.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-009", "start": 1712.08, "end": 1714.22, "text": "I mean, people like me who were born in the United States", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-010", "start": 1714.22, "end": 1720.08, "text": "still have that same kind of approach and almost resistance to that", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-011", "start": 1720.08, "end": 1722.66, "text": "challenge to authority, the so -called,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-012", "start": 1722.7, "end": 1725.08, "text": "I hate the phrase, but thinking out of the box or Sure.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-013", "start": 1726.08, "end": 1727.14, "text": "What's going on here?", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-014", "start": 1727.2, "end": 1730.22, "text": "I mean, is there something sort of more deeply cultural and certainly", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-015", "start": 1730.22, "end": 1733.98, "text": "not genetic, but you actually have an interesting personal experience,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-016", "start": 1734.14, "end": 1735.92, "text": "right? I mean, you were born in China,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-017", "start": 1735.96, "end": 1738.04, "text": "but you moved to Canada when you were quite young.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-018", "start": 1738.1, "end": 1738.56, "text": "Is that correct?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-019", "start": 1738.76, "end": 1739.06, "text": "Mm -hmm.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0063-chunk-020", "start": 1739.06, "end": 1741.92, "text": "And you ended up attending Yale and", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "8629aa4036ab8ac255b2918c3e83fc9cd49df012bc2eea07b1c253dd263b648f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0063", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1692s", "time_label": "28:12", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0064", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1752.58, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "had, I think, in many ways, a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States. Could you talk a little bit about that?", "word_count": 35, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0064-chunk-001", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1744.64, "text": "had, I think, in many ways,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0064-chunk-002", "start": 1744.64, "end": 1748.44, "text": "a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0064-chunk-003", "start": 1748.44, "end": 1751.48, "text": "lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0064-chunk-004", "start": 1751.54, "end": 1752.58, "text": "Could you talk a little bit about that?", "word_count": 8 } ], "text_sha256": "c19977493189b444e7300621aa838bc72c983e8b2e647e777a147be410149109", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0064", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1741s", "time_label": "29:01", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0065", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education system, so I think a lot about my personal experience in the Western education system, and I think a lot about how it compares with the Chinese education system. So this has become a very personal issue for me, very emotional, very personal issue. So my story is this. When I first went to Canada, I had a very tough time because I was very shy. I was a very awkward kid. You know, in China, I would have fit in perfectly well. You know, it's like the ugly duckling story, right? I would have fit in perfectly well in China because everyone is shy, everyone's awkward, everyone just reads books in China. But in a place like", "word_count": 160, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0065-chunk-001", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1753.36, "text": "Sure. 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They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growing up in Canada. I was bullied a lot. I was teased a lot. I developed a lot of traumatic psychological scars growing up in Canada. And then when I went to Yale, it was a different type of psychological scar because all my classes were in Canada. My classmates came from, you know, these very upper class, very intellectual families. And my family, my dad was a cook. My mom was a seamstress. And I felt a complete fraud at a place like Yale where, you know, being charming, where social etiquette was the priority. So I ran away from all of that. I was alienated. I was traumatized. I was very withdrawn. And I was very shy. 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Sure.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-006", "start": 1808.28, "end": 1812.66, "text": "But I had a very tough time growing up in Canada.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-007", "start": 1812.76, "end": 1813.54, "text": "I was bullied a lot.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-008", "start": 1813.66, "end": 1814.46, "text": "I was teased a lot.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-009", "start": 1814.64, "end": 1819.32, "text": "I developed a lot of traumatic psychological scars growing up in Canada.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-010", "start": 1819.48, "end": 1820.6, "text": "And then when I went to Yale,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-011", "start": 1820.82, "end": 1824.2, "text": "it was a different type of psychological scar because all my classes", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-012", "start": 1824.2, "end": 1824.26, "text": "were in Canada.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-013", "start": 1824.28, "end": 1825.16, "text": "My classmates came from, you know,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-014", "start": 1825.16, "end": 1827.38, "text": "these very upper class, very intellectual families.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-015", "start": 1827.7, "end": 1830.24, "text": "And my family, my dad was a cook.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-016", "start": 1830.46, "end": 1831.98, "text": "My mom was a seamstress.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-017", "start": 1832.18, "end": 1836.18, "text": "And I felt a complete fraud at a place like Yale where,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-018", "start": 1836.34, "end": 1841.28, "text": "you know, being charming, where social etiquette was the priority.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-019", "start": 1841.56, "end": 1843.98, "text": "So I ran away from all of that.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-020", "start": 1844.12, "end": 1845.2, "text": "I was alienated.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-021", "start": 1845.36, "end": 1847.36, "text": "I was traumatized.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-022", "start": 1848.28, "end": 1849.72, "text": "I was very withdrawn.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-023", "start": 1850.2, "end": 1852.22, "text": "And I was very shy.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0066-chunk-024", "start": 1852.22, "end": 1852.36, "text": "I", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "5cd06d74cca1e350016e097d2dcf2dbfcaa6cde2cb4c82b20e1dd82cf61f40ae", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0066", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1798s", "time_label": "29:58", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0067", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same sort of psychological scars that I encountered when I was in high school in Canada. Oh, misery loves comedy. 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Oh, misery loves comedy.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0067-chunk-008", "start": 1869.98, "end": 1870.32, "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "c9a99a3c048325c15d31f49e3ca3c1a0b7c10eba8a619c5c140c62f6fd7ba7fa", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0067", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1852s", "time_label": "30:52", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0068", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0068", "start": 1870.34, "end": 1871.92, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Like fraternity hazing, you know.", "word_count": 5, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0068-chunk-001", "start": 1870.34, "end": 1871.92, "text": "Like fraternity hazing, you know.", "word_count": 5 } ], "text_sha256": "522481171f0c7602093c1d64e9cb798305fa2f4653a9b5ead0bf8ad1e882b289", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0068", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1870s", "time_label": "31:10", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0069", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a lot for Chinese newspapers, emphasizing the need for students to be psychologically prepared for the experience in America. Basically, what we find is that China and the West is not a good marriage. And so the Chinese education system, it's very good at producing students to do well in the Chinese society. So not talking, not questioning authority, just going with the flow, emphasizing and leveraging your frequency network, these are very important skills you need to do well in China. But when these kids go off to America, they find that because they've been indoctrinated to do well in this Chinese school system, they become stressed out by the American school system where everyone's raising his hand, everyone is talking out of turn.", "word_count": 162, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-001", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1873.62, "text": "But at the same time,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-002", "start": 1873.62, "end": 1877.54, "text": "because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-003", "start": 1877.9, "end": 1882.2, "text": "the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-004", "start": 1882.2, "end": 1885.44, "text": "I'm a very vocal critic of this trend.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-005", "start": 1885.52, "end": 1887.44, "text": "Actually, I write a lot for Chinese newspapers,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-006", "start": 1887.9, "end": 1893.58, "text": "emphasizing the need for students to be psychologically prepared for the experience", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-007", "start": 1893.58, "end": 1894.74, "text": "in America.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-008", "start": 1895.04, "end": 1898.54, "text": "Basically, what we find is that China and the West is not", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-009", "start": 1898.54, "end": 1899.08, "text": "a good marriage.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-010", "start": 1899.34, "end": 1901.28, "text": "And so the Chinese education system,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-011", "start": 1901.28, "end": 1903.74, "text": "it's very good at producing students to do well in the Chinese", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0069-chunk-012", "start": 1903.74, "end": 1907.68, "text": "society. 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The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the Western school system. These are all alien concepts to the Chinese school system. So when Chinese students go abroad, we're seeing a lot of psychological confusion and alienation right now.", "word_count": 66, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0070-chunk-001", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1934.58, "text": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0070-chunk-002", "start": 1934.58, "end": 1939.3, "text": "discussion. 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And they write to me because they know I'm in China and I know a lot of Chinese people. I know the Chinese educational system. And the emails always go something like this. I have this really bright graduate student from the PRC, and we put him on here. He seemed very high scores, off the charts, really nice guy, really smart guy. And we put him on this project. And he's coming up with these, you know, his analytical skills are nil. He doesn't seem to be able to come up with any ideas, or at least as far as we can see. And the questions that we get are, am I missing something? Is it a language problem? Is it a cultural problem? Am I expecting too much?", "word_count": 161, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-001", "start": 1954.84, "end": 1957.08, "text": "I get emails all the time,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-002", "start": 1957.08, "end": 1958.16, "text": "and I just got one this week,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-003", "start": 1958.2, "end": 1959.34, "text": "so while I'm thinking about it,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-004", "start": 1959.38, "end": 1963.2, "text": "from friends of mine who are academics or professors in different universities.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-005", "start": 1963.6, "end": 1965.94, "text": "And they write to me because they know I'm in China and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-006", "start": 1965.94, "end": 1967.02, "text": "I know a lot of Chinese people.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-007", "start": 1967.06, "end": 1968.34, "text": "I know the Chinese educational system.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-008", "start": 1968.46, "end": 1970.2, "text": "And the emails always go something like this.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-009", "start": 1970.2, "end": 1973.96, "text": "I have this really bright graduate student from the PRC,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-010", "start": 1974.08, "end": 1975.34, "text": "and we put him on here.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-011", "start": 1975.44, "end": 1977.06, "text": "He seemed very high scores,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-012", "start": 1977.18, "end": 1978.84, "text": "off the charts, really nice guy,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-013", "start": 1978.92, "end": 1979.44, "text": "really smart guy.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-014", "start": 1979.58, "end": 1980.66, "text": "And we put him on this project.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-015", "start": 1981.3, "end": 1983.3, "text": "And he's coming up with these,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-016", "start": 1983.42, "end": 1986.7, "text": "you know, his analytical skills are nil.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-017", "start": 1986.74, "end": 1988.96, "text": "He doesn't seem to be able to come up with any ideas,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-018", "start": 1989.22, "end": 1991.5, "text": "or at least as far as we can see.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-019", "start": 1991.82, "end": 1993.34, "text": "And the questions that we get are,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-020", "start": 1993.4, "end": 1994.38, "text": "am I missing something?", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-021", "start": 1994.6, "end": 1995.62, "text": "Is it a language problem?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-022", "start": 1995.9, "end": 1996.82, "text": "Is it a cultural problem?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-023", "start": 1996.82, "end": 1998.06, "text": "Am I expecting too", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0071-chunk-024", "start": 1998.06, "end": 1998.264, "text": "much?", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "18266ceb8c58b2523962ce36921270ac2c3d169df242dd1fc0feda02284e4e0c", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0071", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1954s", "time_label": "32:34", "tags": [ "question" ] }, { "id": "seg-0072", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0072", "start": 1998.264, "end": 2000.42, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "I don't know what to say to them exactly. All right.", "word_count": 11, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0072-chunk-001", "start": 1998.264, "end": 2000.1, "text": "I don't know what to say to them exactly.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0072-chunk-002", "start": 2000.1, "end": 2000.42, "text": "All right.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "1430cea718842916f5541253f4ddd4945091d21670b3528bce29ae38e3b1ffc4", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0072", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=1998s", "time_label": "33:18", "tags": [ "question" ] }, { "id": "seg-0073", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, that these Chinese students become psychologically traumatized and they become withdrawn. And that inhibits their ability to learn, right? I mean, like, the neuroscience behind this is very clear. When we are confident, when we are happy, we are much more open to new ideas. Our brains can absorb new ideas much more easily than if we are stressed. If we're stressed, it's the fight or flight response, and our system shuts down. So I feel that what's happening is that a lot of Chinese go to the United States, they're not ready for sort of like, you know, harsh debating culture that exists in the American workplace. And they become very insecure. They become very withdrawn. 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And they could possibly have a lot to contribute. It's just that they are, you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts and self -hatred. And so they're not able to contribute to the conversation effectively. And I say this out of my own personal experience. Sure. Sure.", "word_count": 67, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-001", "start": 2060.32, "end": 2062.1, "text": "mean, like, all of them are very bright to be able to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-002", "start": 2062.1, "end": 2062.7, "text": "go to the United States,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-003", "start": 2062.82, "end": 2064.48, "text": "right? And they could possibly have a lot to contribute.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-004", "start": 2064.84, "end": 2065.78, "text": "It's just that they are,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-005", "start": 2065.92, "end": 2070.7, "text": "you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts and self -hatred.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-006", "start": 2071, "end": 2074.7, "text": "And so they're not able to contribute to the conversation effectively.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-007", "start": 2075.02, "end": 2076.62, "text": "And I say this out of my own personal experience.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0074-chunk-008", "start": 2076.94, "end": 2077.56, "text": "Sure. Sure.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "d12b48551005fb0ff00ee021c6a20d63a18d8c10f56ec8ac04b1f192c8d2fc24", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0074", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2060s", "time_label": "34:20", "tags": [ "answer" ] }, { "id": "seg-0075", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0075", "start": 2077.72, "end": 2136.64, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "That accords with what I've seen. I have my own sort of pet theory about how best to do it. So for somebody of means. So somebody like you or me, David, who, I don't know, I don't know. Has the opportunity to pick and choose among Chinese and Western pedagogical styles. I am not ready to say that there's nothing good about Chinese education. I think that it actually can confer significant advantages on a young person. I think that there's value in the ability to perform just incredibly difficult mnemonic tasks. Just wire yourself to be able to do things that will, because much will require memorization. If you want to excel at history, you need to be able to remember things. So I have this sort of pet theory that a child at a very, very young age should be given freedom to play. They shouldn't be, you know, forced to, I mean, I think that we are, when we're very, very young, we have these incredibly plastic brains.", "word_count": 172, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-001", "start": 2077.72, "end": 2080.26, "text": "That accords with what I've seen.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-002", "start": 2080.34, "end": 2083.34, "text": "I have my own sort of pet theory about how best to", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-003", "start": 2083.34, "end": 2083.66, "text": "do it.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-004", "start": 2083.72, "end": 2084.94, "text": "So for somebody of means.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-005", "start": 2085, "end": 2086.22, "text": "So somebody like you or me,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-006", "start": 2086.3, "end": 2087.76, "text": "David, who, I don't know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-007", "start": 2087.76, "end": 2087.76, "text": "I don't know.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-008", "start": 2087.76, "end": 2092.84, "text": "Has the opportunity to pick and choose among Chinese and Western pedagogical", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-009", "start": 2092.84, "end": 2097.88, "text": "styles. I am not ready to say that there's nothing good about", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-010", "start": 2097.88, "end": 2100.04, "text": "Chinese education.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-011", "start": 2100.3, "end": 2104.14, "text": "I think that it actually can confer significant advantages on a young", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-012", "start": 2104.14, "end": 2107.92, "text": "person. I think that there's value in the ability to perform just", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-013", "start": 2107.92, "end": 2109.68, "text": "incredibly difficult mnemonic tasks.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-014", "start": 2110.34, "end": 2115.08, "text": "Just wire yourself to be able to do things that will,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-015", "start": 2115.18, "end": 2117.54, "text": "because much will require memorization.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-016", "start": 2117.54, "end": 2119.3, "text": "If you want to excel at history,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-017", "start": 2119.42, "end": 2120.78, "text": "you need to be able to remember things.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-018", "start": 2121.26, "end": 2126.12, "text": "So I have this sort of pet theory that a child at", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-019", "start": 2126.12, "end": 2130.04, "text": "a very, very young age should be given freedom to play.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-020", "start": 2130.18, "end": 2131.12, "text": "They shouldn't be, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-021", "start": 2131.16, "end": 2133.88, "text": "forced to, I mean, I think that we", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-022", "start": 2133.88, "end": 2135.2, "text": "are, when we're very, very young,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0075-chunk-023", "start": 2135.24, "end": 2136.64, "text": "we have these incredibly plastic brains.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "861077ccd46cd52ae542e0eea70a695ca993a97d4690eff850315c455bdcb762", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0075", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2077s", "time_label": "34:37", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0076", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0076", "start": 2136.82, "end": 2168.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "You know, part of the reason why we have such a long period of helplessness as infants and as toddlers compared to other mammals, compared to other animals. Is that we do need this, this play time to, to develop the ability to create counterfactuals into it. And then, then for, for, I mean, so in, in, in a sense, giving them that kind of freedom, that kind of Matasori -esque, you know, very, very young freedom. Then throw them into the Chinese system for a while. Let them learn that discipline and then take them out of it when they're in junior high before it gets too late.", "word_count": 109, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-001", "start": 2136.82, "end": 2139.8, "text": "You know, part of the reason why we have such a long", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-002", "start": 2139.8, "end": 2145.54, "text": "period of helplessness as infants and as toddlers compared to other mammals,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-003", "start": 2145.74, "end": 2146.88, "text": "compared to other animals.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-004", "start": 2146.88, "end": 2148.8, "text": "Is that we do need this,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-005", "start": 2148.8, "end": 2152.94, "text": "this play time to, to develop the ability to create counterfactuals into", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-006", "start": 2152.94, "end": 2154.5, "text": "it. And then, then for,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-007", "start": 2154.56, "end": 2155.52, "text": "for, I mean, so in,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-008", "start": 2155.56, "end": 2157.26, "text": "in, in a sense, giving them that kind of freedom,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-009", "start": 2157.36, "end": 2158.86, "text": "that kind of Matasori -esque,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-010", "start": 2158.88, "end": 2160.92, "text": "you know, very, very young freedom.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-011", "start": 2161, "end": 2162.76, "text": "Then throw them into the Chinese system for a while.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-012", "start": 2162.82, "end": 2166.62, "text": "Let them learn that discipline and then take them out of it", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0076-chunk-013", "start": 2166.62, "end": 2168.7, "text": "when they're in junior high before it gets too late.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "af9defe894c21f707c03edc76d330a7c553fa2c87a12d07ae0e26fd185a7e58f", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0076", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2136s", "time_label": "35:36", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0077", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've given this example a million times. I don't even know if it's valid or not, but it's very vivid and maybe you can comment on it. He says, or he gives the example of the, the difference between the Chinese education system and the American education system is teaching a young child. And this, this has to do with what you were just saying too, teaching a child to open a door with a key. And he says, you know, the, the Chinese style is to like hold the child's hand with the key in it and say, now see, you push it in and you turn it right. Okay. Now let's try it again. See, you got it. And the kid very quickly learns the skill of opening the door.", "word_count": 170, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-001", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2170.5, "text": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-002", "start": 2170.6, "end": 2171.58, "text": "That's probably way out of date.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-003", "start": 2172, "end": 2173.8, "text": "Yeah. Well, no, that one,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-004", "start": 2173.8, "end": 2175.54, "text": "but there's also one called To Open Minds.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-005", "start": 2175.54, "end": 2176.68, "text": "It's specifically about China.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-006", "start": 2176.72, "end": 2177.14, "text": "Yeah. Sure.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-007", "start": 2177.24, "end": 2179.58, "text": "And the example, and I've given this example a million times.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-008", "start": 2179.64, "end": 2181.1, "text": "I don't even know if it's valid or not,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-009", "start": 2181.22, "end": 2183.36, "text": "but it's very vivid and maybe you can comment on it.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-010", "start": 2183.46, "end": 2185.86, "text": "He says, or he gives the example of the,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-011", "start": 2185.94, "end": 2189.36, "text": "the difference between the Chinese education system and the American education system", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-012", "start": 2189.36, "end": 2190.82, "text": "is teaching a young child.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-013", "start": 2190.9, "end": 2192.66, "text": "And this, this has to do with what you were just saying", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-014", "start": 2192.66, "end": 2194.82, "text": "too, teaching a child to open a door with a key.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-015", "start": 2195.4, "end": 2196.7, "text": "And he says, you know,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-016", "start": 2196.7, "end": 2199.64, "text": "the, the Chinese style is to like hold the child's hand with", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-017", "start": 2199.64, "end": 2200.7, "text": "the key in it and say,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-018", "start": 2200.82, "end": 2202.9, "text": "now see, you push it in and you turn it right.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-019", "start": 2203, "end": 2203.92, "text": "Okay. Now let's try it again.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-020", "start": 2203.96, "end": 2204.84, "text": "See, you got it.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-021", "start": 2204.84, "end": 2205.34, "text": "And the", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0077-chunk-022", "start": 2205.34, "end": 2207.72, "text": "kid very quickly learns the skill of opening the door.", "word_count": 10 } ], "text_sha256": "8d0eb2bfc4e78a2b1ee4bd3514c9aa1f45d1425405af49360e6e06eceaf55c34", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0077", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2168s", "time_label": "36:08", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0078", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it. And everyone goes, yeah, you figured it out. Right. So, but the point is that in the process of learning how to open the door, the kid has also learned another skill, which is GPS, general problem solving. Sure. You know, and what do I do in a new situation when I don't know what to do? Yeah. And, and is that a fair contrast or is that a simple oversimplification? Or is there anything to what Howard is saying?", "word_count": 124, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-001", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2210.38, "text": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-002", "start": 2210.44, "end": 2212.36, "text": "you just hand the key to the kid and say,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-003", "start": 2212.38, "end": 2213.5, "text": "you figure out how to open the door.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-004", "start": 2213.66, "end": 2216.84, "text": "And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-005", "start": 2216.84, "end": 2217.32, "text": "get it.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-006", "start": 2217.36, "end": 2219.1, "text": "And everyone goes, yeah, you figured it out.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-007", "start": 2219.16, "end": 2222.1, "text": "Right. So, but the point is that in the process of learning", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-008", "start": 2222.1, "end": 2222.92, "text": "how to open the door,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-009", "start": 2222.98, "end": 2224.56, "text": "the kid has also learned another skill,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-010", "start": 2224.68, "end": 2226.76, "text": "which is GPS, general problem solving.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-011", "start": 2226.82, "end": 2228.84, "text": "Sure. You know, and what do I do in a new situation", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-012", "start": 2228.84, "end": 2229.86, "text": "when I don't know what to do?", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-013", "start": 2229.92, "end": 2234.08, "text": "Yeah. And, and is that a fair contrast or is that a", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-014", "start": 2234.08, "end": 2234.82, "text": "simple oversimplification?", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0078-chunk-015", "start": 2234.82, "end": 2236.7, "text": "Or is there anything to what Howard is saying?", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "d19e3219cf99c3b131b34f8961fd6a4ca3a2faead51b65575cd4016a30f71ccb", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0078", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2207s", "time_label": "36:47", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0079", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you can say that the, the American system is focused on like learning by doing, whereas the Chinese school system is just like learning by memorizing, learning, right? Get back to Kaiser's point. I think that what we can take away from the school, Chinese school system, like what, where the Chinese school system is very strong. And where other school systems should try to emulate is that, you know, there's a real respect for hard work in China. And there's a real respect and understanding that to grow as an individual, you might have to make sacrifices. You might have to endure periods of, of painful. Of hardship, right. Exactly. And I think that's a very valuable and very worthwhile lesson. Sure.", "word_count": 160, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-001", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2236.96, "text": "Yeah, sure.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-002", "start": 2237.1, "end": 2238.88, "text": "I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-003", "start": 2239.2, "end": 2241.94, "text": "I mean, the other comparison you can say is that,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-004", "start": 2241.94, "end": 2243.48, "text": "you know, Americans play sports,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-005", "start": 2243.56, "end": 2246.24, "text": "whereas Chinese just play the video game sports,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-006", "start": 2246.44, "end": 2247.32, "text": "right? I mean, like you,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-007", "start": 2247.34, "end": 2248.06, "text": "you can say that the,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-008", "start": 2248.06, "end": 2251.64, "text": "the American system is focused on like learning by doing,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-009", "start": 2251.7, "end": 2254.8, "text": "whereas the Chinese school system is just like learning by memorizing,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-010", "start": 2254.8, "end": 2256.46, "text": "learning, right?", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-011", "start": 2256.7, "end": 2257.76, "text": "Get back to Kaiser's point.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-012", "start": 2257.88, "end": 2259.98, "text": "I think that what we can take away from the school,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-013", "start": 2260.02, "end": 2260.9, "text": "Chinese school system, like what,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-014", "start": 2260.92, "end": 2262.94, "text": "where the Chinese school system is very strong.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-015", "start": 2262.94, "end": 2267.2, "text": "And where other school systems should try to emulate is that,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-016", "start": 2267.28, "end": 2270.42, "text": "you know, there's a real respect for hard work in China.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-017", "start": 2270.56, "end": 2273.38, "text": "And there's a real respect and understanding that to grow as an", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-018", "start": 2273.38, "end": 2276, "text": "individual, you might have to make sacrifices.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-019", "start": 2276.28, "end": 2279.32, "text": "You might have to endure periods of,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-020", "start": 2279.38, "end": 2279.98, "text": "of painful.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-021", "start": 2280, "end": 2280.76, "text": "Of hardship, right.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-022", "start": 2280.86, "end": 2285.58, "text": "Exactly. And I think that's a very valuable and very worthwhile lesson.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0079-chunk-023", "start": 2285.98, "end": 2286.28, "text": "Sure.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "4fd9131176611bb76f77cb675a73c10b14315adb58001f02e6d8c4fc21bb47df", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0079", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2236s", "time_label": "37:16", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0080", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0080", "start": 2286.36, "end": 2299.7, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "And the negative side of that is, I mean, don't you kind of in, in your heart of hearts believe that America, the American school system coddles? The children, it, it sort of accepts all sorts of excuses for that. I think that, yes. I've always thought that. Yeah. I've always felt that way.", "word_count": 54, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-001", "start": 2286.36, "end": 2287.82, "text": "And the negative side of that is,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-002", "start": 2287.84, "end": 2289.34, "text": "I mean, don't you kind of in,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-003", "start": 2289.38, "end": 2290.78, "text": "in your heart of hearts believe that America,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-004", "start": 2290.86, "end": 2292.84, "text": "the American school system coddles?", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-005", "start": 2292.94, "end": 2296.84, "text": "The children, it, it sort of accepts all sorts of excuses for", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-006", "start": 2296.84, "end": 2297.24, "text": "that. I think that, yes.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-007", "start": 2297.36, "end": 2298.48, "text": "I've always thought that.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0080-chunk-008", "start": 2298.66, "end": 2299.7, "text": "Yeah. I've always felt that way.", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "ea9a29057edb0c5112d2ab1c21bd8f110869ea153a5c5e17b65af5c8334efc07", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0080", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2286s", "time_label": "38:06", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0081", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2317.02, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on about the defects in the American school system. I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification, right? Sure. You know, Postman wrote this book, Amusing Ourselves to Death in 1980, predicting, you know, like TV and how TV is going to kill any creative individuals. Yeah.", "word_count": 62, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0081-chunk-001", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2302.74, "text": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0081-chunk-002", "start": 2302.74, "end": 2304.96, "text": "about the defects in the American school system.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0081-chunk-003", "start": 2305.06, "end": 2308.38, "text": "I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0081-chunk-004", "start": 2308.7, "end": 2309.18, "text": "right? 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Yeah.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "c28524d50305210f883eea2823d4a6c75526c62c7526ccd6f74b49fd57f6cdab", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0082", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2317s", "time_label": "38:37", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0083", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "start": 2323.06, "end": 2335.46, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "No. We've heard a lot of horror stories and clearly the students in America right now are disengaged from, from learning. 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But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to explore his world instead of just sitting down and listening to. Yeah. His teacher make him do a test. Yeah. Tiger father does not believe in ADD. The tiger father does not believe in ADD. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that, I mean, there are multiple issues wrong with the American school system, but at the same time, I mean like the fact that there's an emphasis on the individual, there's a sort of openness and diversity of discussion in America. That's something that's also very valuable for the Chinese school system to learn as well. 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Okay.", "word_count": 2 } ], "text_sha256": "3dc76b2d08bc656ace88cbe0c30cb62f7341e35244f9765509516e94c43a2440", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0087", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2408s", "time_label": "40:08", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0088", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0088", "start": 2428.26, "end": 2442.46, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "One eye on the clock here. I realized that we're, we're, we're running out of time here. And I do, I want to thank John for coming in and a rich topic. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one that we can, we can talk about endlessly. But let's move on to two recommendations. Maybe David, you would like to start with us?", "word_count": 61, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-001", "start": 2428.26, "end": 2429.22, "text": "One eye on the clock here.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-002", "start": 2429.28, "end": 2430.34, "text": "I realized that we're, we're,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-003", "start": 2430.34, "end": 2431.34, "text": "we're running out of time here.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-004", "start": 2431.4, "end": 2434.64, "text": "And I do, I want to thank John for coming in and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-005", "start": 2434.64, "end": 2435.48, "text": "a rich topic.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-006", "start": 2435.58, "end": 2436.24, "text": "Yeah, absolutely.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-007", "start": 2436.56, "end": 2437.38, "text": "I mean, one that we can,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-008", "start": 2437.38, "end": 2438.2, "text": "we can talk about endlessly.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-009", "start": 2438.72, "end": 2440.5, "text": "But let's move on to two recommendations.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0088-chunk-010", "start": 2440.72, "end": 2442.46, "text": "Maybe David, you would like to start with us?", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "d0aadf7af56253de27f52bf6500683aab5504571f5854c6d4dbf287d8c85537a", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0088", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2428s", "time_label": "40:28", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0089", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas called Asia's Orthographic Dilemma. And it, maybe it's good additional reading for this podcast because it touches upon an aspect we didn't touch upon on the podcast, which is a big difference in the Chinese educational system. The American educational system is the Chinese educational system includes learning the Chinese writing system, which is a very time consuming and labor intensive and rote memorization intensive. Right.", "word_count": 101, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-001", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2442.84, "text": "Okay. This week.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-002", "start": 2443.12, "end": 2446.54, "text": "Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-003", "start": 2446.66, "end": 2448.84, "text": "I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-004", "start": 2450.16, "end": 2452.5, "text": "So one book in particular,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-005", "start": 2452.64, "end": 2453.4, "text": "but there's two books.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-006", "start": 2453.46, "end": 2455.02, "text": "There's a book by William C.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-007", "start": 2455.1, "end": 2458.14, "text": "Hanas called Asia's Orthographic Dilemma.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-008", "start": 2458.48, "end": 2462.06, "text": "And it, maybe it's good additional reading for this podcast because it", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-009", "start": 2462.06, "end": 2464.48, "text": "touches upon an aspect we didn't touch upon on the podcast,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-010", "start": 2464.6, "end": 2467.32, "text": "which is a big difference in the Chinese educational system.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-011", "start": 2467.34, "end": 2472.44, "text": "The American educational system is the Chinese educational system includes learning the", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-012", "start": 2472.46, "end": 2477.04, "text": "Chinese writing system, which is a very time consuming and labor intensive", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-013", "start": 2477.04, "end": 2478.86, "text": "and rote memorization intensive.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0089-chunk-014", "start": 2478.86, "end": 2479.2, "text": "Right.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "addeb3e0950be9ee0e993f79302ee7399af84c0cbbc495d360018dc1792d2a04", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0089", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2442s", "time_label": "40:42", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0090", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "start": 2479.2, "end": 2495.88, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "I kind of think that it, it actually is, is a, one of the tremendous things that, I mean, it teaches you to make these virtually, I mean, yes, of course we understand that radicals can, can give you some sort of phonemic value, but virtually arbitrary, virtually arbitrary. Yeah. These symbols linked to an idea.", "word_count": 56, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-001", "start": 2479.2, "end": 2480.34, "text": "I kind of think that it,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-002", "start": 2480.34, "end": 2481.56, "text": "it actually is, is a,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-003", "start": 2481.64, "end": 2483.18, "text": "one of the tremendous things that,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-004", "start": 2483.2, "end": 2485.92, "text": "I mean, it teaches you to make these virtually,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-005", "start": 2486.16, "end": 2488.58, "text": "I mean, yes, of course we understand that radicals can,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-006", "start": 2488.66, "end": 2490.44, "text": "can give you some sort of phonemic value,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-007", "start": 2490.7, "end": 2492.88, "text": "but virtually arbitrary, virtually arbitrary.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0090-chunk-008", "start": 2493.02, "end": 2495.88, "text": "Yeah. These symbols linked to an idea.", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "c04e38857aae30b938a5f089969fa88a96bd69d0d02171aaf436662acf0b0484", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0090", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2479s", "time_label": "41:19", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0091", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2525.78, "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "text": "And this particular book makes the case, at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case, that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or, or certain kinds of critical tools that just involve classification abstraction because of the way the system is devised. It's, it's too complex to talk about now, but I think it's a good thing to think about in terms of the, and not just the Chinese education system, Japanese. Sure. Korean has shared some aspects with Chinese.", "word_count": 96, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-001", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2499.14, "text": "And this particular book makes the case,", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-002", "start": 2499.14, "end": 2501.7, "text": "at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-003", "start": 2501.9, "end": 2505.8, "text": "that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-004", "start": 2505.8, "end": 2509.36, "text": "also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-005", "start": 2509.38, "end": 2513.86, "text": "or certain kinds of critical tools that just involve classification abstraction because", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-006", "start": 2513.86, "end": 2515.46, "text": "of the way the system is devised.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-007", "start": 2515.56, "end": 2517.44, "text": "It's, it's too complex to talk about now,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-008", "start": 2517.52, "end": 2520.24, "text": "but I think it's a good thing to think about in terms", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-009", "start": 2520.24, "end": 2522.48, "text": "of the, and not just the Chinese education system,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-010", "start": 2522.58, "end": 2523.64, "text": "Japanese. Sure.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0091-chunk-011", "start": 2523.7, "end": 2525.78, "text": "Korean has shared some aspects with Chinese.", "word_count": 7 } ], "text_sha256": "c8f48d9d6b0400ccdd97b0ab89cc39a672cbdb0603f711408f6df9244afae852", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0091", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2496s", "time_label": "41:36", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0092", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in the book is she looks at the history, the neuroscience behind the reading brain, how the reading brain was formulated. But the thing about, about Chinese language is that the script is not phonological, which means you cannot tell how to read it based on the character. There are some clues. There are some clues. It's weakly phonological. Right. But like the argument that she makes is that because of this, because the spoken language and the written language. Are separate. It takes Chinese people so many more years to learn a language, which inhibits the learning. Yeah. But I'm saying, you know, Proust and the Squid is, you know, elaboration of this book. Yeah.", "word_count": 153, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-001", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2527.88, "text": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-002", "start": 2528.24, "end": 2529.88, "text": "This book by Marianne Wolf,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-003", "start": 2530.04, "end": 2531.46, "text": "who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-004", "start": 2531.46, "end": 2533.9, "text": "She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is,", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-005", "start": 2534, "end": 2537.32, "text": "but the idea in the book is she looks at the history,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-006", "start": 2537.42, "end": 2539.26, "text": "the neuroscience behind the reading brain,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-007", "start": 2539.42, "end": 2540.74, "text": "how the reading brain was formulated.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-008", "start": 2541.18, "end": 2544.84, "text": "But the thing about, about Chinese language is that the script is", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-009", "start": 2544.84, "end": 2550.16, "text": "not phonological, which means you cannot tell how to read it based", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-010", "start": 2550.16, "end": 2551.32, "text": "on the character.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-011", "start": 2551.34, "end": 2551.9, "text": "There are some clues.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-012", "start": 2552.32, "end": 2552.9, "text": "There are some clues.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-013", "start": 2553.36, "end": 2554.62, "text": "It's weakly phonological.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-014", "start": 2554.62, "end": 2557.94, "text": "Right. But like the argument that she makes is that because of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-015", "start": 2557.94, "end": 2560.96, "text": "this, because the spoken language and the written language.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-016", "start": 2560.96, "end": 2561.8, "text": "Are separate.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-017", "start": 2561.96, "end": 2566.4, "text": "It takes Chinese people so many more years to learn a language,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-018", "start": 2566.56, "end": 2567.64, "text": "which inhibits the learning.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-019", "start": 2567.74, "end": 2568.9, "text": "Yeah. But I'm saying, you know,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-020", "start": 2568.94, "end": 2570.24, "text": "Proust and the Squid is,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-021", "start": 2570.26, "end": 2573.44, "text": "you know, elaboration of this book.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0092-chunk-022", "start": 2573.46, "end": 2573.62, "text": "Yeah.", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "8899858fb78f763d2901121c3694fc4434e5e25594d08b8ae5cd01da29bc85f8", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0092", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2525s", "time_label": "42:05", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0093", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2626.64, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Oh, great. Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is to recommend something from the company that I work for, but I think this is a whole lot of fun. You guys ought to check it out. Go to Trends, T -R -E -N -D -S dot Baidu dot com and look at Baidu Predict, what Baidu Predict is able to do right now. We have all sorts of very, very large scale, big data driven predictive features right now. They include the World Cup. We went 12 for 12. Really? We have a tremendous record right now on the World Cup predictions. We beat Goldman, Microsoft, Google, all the others who are offering big data driven prediction engines or predictions for the World Cup. We got Germany correct to beat Brazil. All those things. So we didn't give it quite a seven to one margin. Do you have stock predictions? Not yet. That may be coming.", "word_count": 162, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-001", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2574.58, "text": "Oh, great.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-002", "start": 2574.9, "end": 2577.76, "text": "Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do,", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-003", "start": 2577.84, "end": 2580.16, "text": "which is to recommend something from the company that I work for,", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-004", "start": 2580.22, "end": 2581.62, "text": "but I think this is a whole lot of fun.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-005", "start": 2581.66, "end": 2582.64, "text": "You guys ought to check it out.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-006", "start": 2582.9, "end": 2586.1, "text": "Go to Trends, T -R -E -N -D -S dot Baidu dot", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-007", "start": 2586.1, "end": 2588.82, "text": "com and look at Baidu Predict,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-008", "start": 2589.06, "end": 2590.94, "text": "what Baidu Predict is able to do right now.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-009", "start": 2590.96, "end": 2593.04, "text": "We have all sorts of very,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-010", "start": 2593.14, "end": 2599.82, "text": "very large scale, big data driven predictive features right now.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-011", "start": 2599.9, "end": 2601.4, "text": "They include the World Cup.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-012", "start": 2601.52, "end": 2602.94, "text": "We went 12 for 12.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0093-chunk-013", "start": 2603.42, "end": 2606.46, "text": "Really? 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And there's explanations about how all this stuff works. But the other ones that we have online right now are intercity travel within China and then from China to outbound destinations by country. And it's predictive. It looks at everything from historical patterns to weather forecasts. To reservations and ticket purchases already made online. To search. Actually, of course, we would use search. We have predictions for diseases as well. Infectious diseases, including flu and cold, hepatitis, tuberculosis, and sexually transmitted diseases as well. This is using extensive data from the Chinese Center for Disease Control. Amazing. It's very cool. Check it out. It's kind of mind -blowing. They're very nicely put together, interactive graphs. And one for Gaokao. 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It's very cool.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-017", "start": 2678.42, "end": 2678.98, "text": "Check it out.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-018", "start": 2679.72, "end": 2681, "text": "It's kind of mind -blowing.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-019", "start": 2681.2, "end": 2682.5, "text": "They're very nicely put together,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-020", "start": 2682.52, "end": 2683.42, "text": "interactive graphs.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-021", "start": 2683.6, "end": 2684.92, "text": "And one for Gaokao.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-022", "start": 2685.06, "end": 2686.62, "text": "We have a Gaokao predictor,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0094-chunk-023", "start": 2686.62, "end": 2689.76, "text": "too, which will show you whether you're looking at", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "1af994130ddae364c4e5fa4e84e4f526e2f498f35013f1ea3c3d6d05675c5430", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0094", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2626s", "time_label": "43:46", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0095", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2729, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts, I guess, but arts, letters, and social sciences. And then on the other hand, of course, sciences and engineering, natural sciences and engineering. And it'll go by region, testing into each university. The projected score dispersion. Very, very interesting. And it's also quite accurate. Kind of creepy. Yeah. Trends.baidu.com. Check it out. I don't agree that it's creepy. I think it's actually very cool. I fear determinism. Okay. Yeah. And of course, I work for that company and just for purposes of full disclosure.", "word_count": 95, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-001", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2698.1, "text": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts,", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-002", "start": 2698.12, "end": 2698.84, "text": "I guess, but arts, letters,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-003", "start": 2698.9, "end": 2699.56, "text": "and social sciences.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-004", "start": 2699.74, "end": 2700.98, "text": "And then on the other hand,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-005", "start": 2700.98, "end": 2702.82, "text": "of course, sciences and engineering,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-006", "start": 2702.92, "end": 2703.96, "text": "natural sciences and engineering.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-007", "start": 2704.12, "end": 2705.34, "text": "And it'll go by region,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-008", "start": 2705.5, "end": 2708.02, "text": "testing into each university.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-009", "start": 2708.02, "end": 2712.06, "text": "The projected score dispersion.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-010", "start": 2712.32, "end": 2713.18, "text": "Very, very interesting.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-011", "start": 2713.48, "end": 2715.16, "text": "And it's also quite accurate.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-012", "start": 2715.72, "end": 2716.58, "text": "Kind of creepy.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-013", "start": 2716.86, "end": 2718.36, "text": "Yeah. Trends.baidu.com.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-014", "start": 2718.42, "end": 2718.72, "text": "Check it out.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-015", "start": 2718.74, "end": 2719.62, "text": "I don't agree that it's creepy.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-016", "start": 2719.78, "end": 2721.46, "text": "I think it's actually very cool.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-017", "start": 2721.6, "end": 2723.56, "text": "I fear determinism.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-018", "start": 2723.66, "end": 2724.12, "text": "Okay. Yeah.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-019", "start": 2724.16, "end": 2727.3, "text": "And of course, I work for that company and just for purposes", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0095-chunk-020", "start": 2727.3, "end": 2729, "text": "of full disclosure.", "word_count": 3 } ], "text_sha256": "02a6887f48fd4b2a44b6f34d8e466ec9db941f7f287e4cfbc7f1326da501f585", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0095", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2689s", "time_label": "44:49", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0096", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a very good book. Yes. It's a very good book. Yes. Drive by Daniel Pink, which looks at how students become motivated in the classroom. What motivates them and what destroys their creativity, what enhances their creativity. It's a very good book for educators. Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, really? That one? I'm sorry I had to say that. But if you work in education, it does give you a lot of interesting ideas in education.", "word_count": 110, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-001", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2730.46, "text": "Great. Zhang Xieqin.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-002", "start": 2730.62, "end": 2732.28, "text": "So books on education, I recommend.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-003", "start": 2733.1, "end": 2737.04, "text": "So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris.", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-004", "start": 2737.56, "end": 2738, "text": "It's a book that's really interesting.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-005", "start": 2738.02, "end": 2738.74, "text": "It's a social animal.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-006", "start": 2738.92, "end": 2739.5, "text": "David Brooks.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-007", "start": 2740.28, "end": 2741.22, "text": "That's a very good book.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-008", "start": 2741.24, "end": 2742, "text": "Yes. It's a very good book.", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-009", "start": 2742.06, "end": 2744.04, "text": "Yes. Drive by Daniel Pink,", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-010", "start": 2744.24, "end": 2748.5, "text": "which looks at how students become motivated in the classroom.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-011", "start": 2748.74, "end": 2750.76, "text": "What motivates them and what destroys their creativity,", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-012", "start": 2750.94, "end": 2752.04, "text": "what enhances their creativity.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-013", "start": 2752.26, "end": 2753.46, "text": "It's a very good book for educators.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-014", "start": 2754.48, "end": 2755.76, "text": "Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-015", "start": 2755.88, "end": 2756.4, "text": "Oh, really?", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-016", "start": 2756.6, "end": 2756.74, "text": "That one?", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-017", "start": 2756.74, "end": 2757.72, "text": "I'm sorry I had to say that.", "word_count": 7 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-018", "start": 2757.86, "end": 2759.12, "text": "But if you work in education,", "word_count": 6 }, { "id": "seg-0096-chunk-019", "start": 2759.48, "end": 2762.58, "text": "it does give you a lot of interesting ideas in education.", "word_count": 11 } ], "text_sha256": "19d574a9639ba62b75c2bb4b00e1b43bb5cdd324ed167a61ae4167472f54b622", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0096", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2729s", "time_label": "45:29", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0097", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2768.64, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible for better math and medical capability?", "word_count": 18, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0097-chunk-001", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2767.18, "text": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0097-chunk-002", "start": 2767.18, "end": 2768.64, "text": "for better math and medical capability?", "word_count": 6 } ], "text_sha256": "8fb29531109743188259b177289e2c0d562f1d58d8f7b097e75c329b3a86d368", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0097", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2763s", "time_label": "46:03", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0098", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "text": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. And the great thing about neuroplasticity is that adults can learn just as well as kids. So the idea is that learning should be a lifelong process. But yeah, these are the books that come to the top of my mind. That's a great story. Yeah. Please, please do not watch The Fourth Society.", "word_count": 90, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-001", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2769.8, "text": "You know what?", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-002", "start": 2770.02, "end": 2771.6, "text": "It creates discussion.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-003", "start": 2771.66, "end": 2772.36, "text": "It creates debate.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-004", "start": 2772.6, "end": 2775.94, "text": "And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators.", "word_count": 9 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-005", "start": 2776.34, "end": 2779.2, "text": "The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-006", "start": 2779.44, "end": 2780.9, "text": "It's a book on neuroplasticity.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-007", "start": 2781.52, "end": 2783.14, "text": "So basically how we learn.", "word_count": 5 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-008", "start": 2783.56, "end": 2789.68, "text": "And the great thing about neuroplasticity is that adults can learn just", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-009", "start": 2789.68, "end": 2790.8, "text": "as well as kids.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-010", "start": 2790.96, "end": 2794, "text": "So the idea is that learning should be a lifelong process.", "word_count": 11 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-011", "start": 2794.44, "end": 2796.48, "text": "But yeah, these are the books that come to the top of", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-012", "start": 2796.48, "end": 2797.08, "text": "my mind.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-013", "start": 2797.2, "end": 2797.88, "text": "That's a great story.", "word_count": 4 }, { "id": "seg-0098-chunk-014", "start": 2798.02, "end": 2799.84, "text": "Yeah. Please, please do not watch The Fourth Society.", "word_count": 9 } ], "text_sha256": "888cd62e8c8044627e0cd7b0a2f3e81f3cf7e9ddd7f66a6cd5a7d1124b6f6ba7", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0098", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2768s", "time_label": "46:08", "tags": [ "exchange" ] }, { "id": "seg-0099", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0099", "start": 2800.74, "end": 2815.26, "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "text": "Oh, come on. Oh, Captain. My Captain. Come on. Anyway, thank you very much for joining us. And folks, we've got a bunch of really cool shows coming up in Sophie. So stay tuned. And we'll see you next week on The Cynic Podcast. Take care. 1", "word_count": 47, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-001", "start": 2800.74, "end": 2801.66, "text": "Oh, come on.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-002", "start": 2802.22, "end": 2802.98, "text": "Oh, Captain.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-003", "start": 2803.12, "end": 2803.64, "text": "My Captain.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-004", "start": 2803.9, "end": 2804.36, "text": "Come on.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-005", "start": 2804.68, "end": 2806.9, "text": "Anyway, thank you very much for joining us.", "word_count": 8 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-006", "start": 2807.04, "end": 2810.3, "text": "And folks, we've got a bunch of really cool shows coming up", "word_count": 12 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-007", "start": 2810.3, "end": 2810.84, "text": "in Sophie.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-008", "start": 2811.06, "end": 2812.38, "text": "So stay tuned.", "word_count": 3 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-009", "start": 2812.46, "end": 2814.22, "text": "And we'll see you next week on The Cynic Podcast.", "word_count": 10 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-010", "start": 2814.5, "end": 2814.92, "text": "Take care.", "word_count": 2 }, { "id": "seg-0099-chunk-011", "start": 2814.98, "end": 2815.26, "text": "1", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "366d3b0ffe012b4b10befcaec516d9699f5a8f80384a532d451f814ccc3691f5", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0099", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2800s", "time_label": "46:40", "tags": [ "monologue" ] }, { "id": "seg-0100", "source_ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0100", "start": 2815.26, "end": 2815.8, "speaker": "UNKNOWN", "text": "1", "word_count": 1, "timed_chunks": [ { "id": "seg-0100-chunk-001", "start": 2815.26, "end": 2815.8, "text": "1", "word_count": 1 } ], "text_sha256": "6b86b273ff34fce19d6b804eff5a3f5747ada4eaa22f1d49c01e52ddb7875b4b", "episode_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/", "transcript_url": "/interviews/interview-875hvfdrxzy/transcript/#seg-0100", "video_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=875HVFDrXzY&t=2815s", "time_label": "46:55", "tags": [ "monologue" ] } ], "interactions": [ { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0003", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0004" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The hosts open Sinica from Beijing, introduce Kaiser Guo and David Moser, joke about Yao Ming and educational exchange, and set the conversational frame before Jiang enters.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser Guo and David Moser; Jiang not yet substantively speaking.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "segment_id": "seg-0001", "start": 9.14, "end": 54.32, "time_label": "0:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Welcome to the Seneca Podcast, a weekly discussion of current affairs in China, coming to you from the pop -up Chinese studio here in Beijing. I'm your host, Kaiser Guo, joined this week by David Moser, our good friend..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 54.32, "end": 61.38, "time_label": "0:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Of educational exchange between the People's Republic of China and the U.S., yeah. But the most exciting thing was Yao Ming was there. Yao Ming was there? Yes." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0003", "segment_id": "seg-0003", "start": 61.4, "end": 73.66, "time_label": "1:01", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Could anyone see him? Could you see anything else except for Yao Ming? Yes, people said, sit down, please. No, he towered, let's put it that way, above everyone. Yeah, yeah. So I understand that you killed there, that y..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "segment_id": "seg-0004", "start": 73.96, "end": 77.48, "time_label": "1:13", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Well, thank you. I hope so. I did a little bit of stand -up for them." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser frames China education through the PISA paradox: Shanghai excels while China is criticized for test teaching, rigidity, hierarchy, and cheating. Jiang answers the first substantive question by explaining why only Shanghai results were publicly released.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser interviewer asks; Jiang answers from seg-0008.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "segment_id": "seg-0007", "start": 182.9, "end": 184.7, "time_label": "3:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Whenever you go to Shanghai, they allow a city to participate, but everything else is at a country level." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0009", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0010" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser asks whether other countries report only municipality-level PISA results; Jiang says he knows Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai are reported separately and is unsure about India.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0009", "segment_id": "seg-0009", "start": 219.62, "end": 228.16, "time_label": "3:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I guess there are a couple of other countries that only do municipality. I think in India, I think it's only Bombay or Mumbai. Is that correct?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0010", "segment_id": "seg-0010", "start": 228.58, "end": 248.22, "time_label": "3:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I'm not sure. I mean, for my knowledge, there are only three cities, Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai, all part of the China PRC officially. That's right. And they're the ones whose results are announced as separate entit..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The hosts push Jiang on whether East Asian dominance proves excellence or test skew; Jiang says East Asian systems dominate PISA because the test rewards skills those systems emphasize.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser and David question; Jiang answers.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "segment_id": "seg-0011", "start": 248.78, "end": 263.02, "time_label": "4:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was really striking. I think anyone who looks at that list of rankings of PISA will not only notice that Shanghai is way up there at the top, but also that everything in the sort of top echelon is an Ea..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013", "segment_id": "seg-0013", "start": 302.7, "end": 316.7, "time_label": "5:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "No, I was just going to say the way you put that, though, is perhaps suspect. You said it indicates that the test is skewed. But I mean, what is the proof of that? I mean, they could say also that we just excel in these..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0016" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang gives his first critique of PISA: it is a snapshot of volatile fourteen-year-olds and rewards the East Asian capacity to make teenagers sit still for hours.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang, with host backchannel at seg-0016.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0016", "segment_id": "seg-0016", "start": 385.62, "end": 386.02, "time_label": "6:25", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Yeah." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0017", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "David defends the virtue of concentration, and Jiang answers that education is broader than literacy and numeracy: teenagers need friends, mistakes, risk, and individual space.", "speaker_attribution": "David question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0017", "segment_id": "seg-0017", "start": 386.28, "end": 400.4, "time_label": "6:26", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Is that good? There's this German sort of virtue that they have. They have a word for it, which means sit flesh, the ability to sit for hours and concentrate. Why is that not an advantage? Stick -to -itivity. Yeah, stic..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018", "segment_id": "seg-0018", "start": 401.2, "end": 457.12, "time_label": "6:41", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Wow. I mean, you guys are speaking on behalf of the Chinese education system. I'm not prepared for this. But what I would argue is that education encompasses many different spheres. And the school system, which focuses..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0019", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0022" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang generalizes from PISA to all tests: tests measure test-taking, East Asia is a deep testing culture, and Shanghai could mobilize top-down authority to perform well.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser prompt; Jiang answer with ASR repetition in seg-0021-0022.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0019", "segment_id": "seg-0019", "start": 457.3, "end": 469.96, "time_label": "7:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "So you're saying almost that the PISA is a culturally biased exam, right? Favors a sort of not just a formal educational system, but actually a style of parenting and everything that is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "segment_id": "seg-0021", "start": 522.86, "end": 566.7, "time_label": "8:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese love taking tests, right? I mean, in America, you know, you say to a class, okay, we're doing a test today. All the kids groan, right? Except for that one Chinese kid in the back who's like, yes, this is my oppo..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0022", "segment_id": "seg-0022", "start": 566.7, "end": 576.94, "time_label": "9:26", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. never happen in America or in Europe. Right. There may have been some lift generated by the top -down kind of, you know, the central authorities wanting Shanghai to do well on t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser asks what Shanghai does right; Jiang says China and Shanghai are strong at fundamental numeracy and literacy and roots this in a Confucian civil-service model blended with a Stalinist proletarian literacy project.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "segment_id": "seg-0023", "start": 577.06, "end": 588.34, "time_label": "9:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "But I think it's pretty widely understood that Shanghai's educational system itself among Chinese cities and provinces is exceptionally good. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, in" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027" ], "kind": "monologue", "summary": "Jiang lays out the three objectives of China education: broad literacy/numeracy for the socialist economy, political orthodoxy across a vast diverse country, and fair allocation of scarce education through Gaokao merit.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang answer continuing from prior packet.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "segment_id": "seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "time_label": "12:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And that's where China is most lacking right now." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0028", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0031", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The hosts press why reform is hard; Jiang says elites and the state want reform, parents fear being cheated, and the system produces accountants and programmers when the economy needs managers, designers, and entrepreneurs.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser and David questions; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0028", "segment_id": "seg-0028", "start": 740.52, "end": 778.38, "time_label": "12:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Right. I mean, that's what we always hear. I mean, that's anyone who does the first thing about Chinese pedagogy will point right away to the prevalence of this rote learning and the relative lack of critical thinking,..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "segment_id": "seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "time_label": "12:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0031", "segment_id": "seg-0031", "start": 844.64, "end": 850.38, "time_label": "14:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Tsai Ing -Pei was the principal or he was the first principal of Peking University, right? Right." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0034", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Jiang explains why Gaokao is culturally sticky: China trusts test scores more than recommendations, qualitative judgment, or institutions, because a national score feels objective and fair in a low-trust society.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang answer with David confirming the fairness problem.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0034", "segment_id": "seg-0034", "start": 955.98, "end": 969.28, "time_label": "15:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Yeah, you mentioned that several times, the fact that the Gaokao, if they start it all over again, you're going to still come up with the Gaokao, because it's the most effective way to ensure fairness, given the fact th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "David distinguishes parents who reinforce Gaokao from wealthy parents who exit the system; Jiang agrees and says the exit faction is powerful but weakens domestic reform because they vote with their feet.", "speaker_attribution": "David question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "segment_id": "seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "time_label": "16:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy wi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0039", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser asks why official reform rhetoric does not produce change; Jiang says administrators master doublethink, praising reform publicly while continuing test practice privately.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0039", "segment_id": "seg-0039", "start": 1097.86, "end": 1134.7, "time_label": "18:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "There's nobody here to fight the fight now. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. I mean, I was going to point that out. Exactly. That's a really difficult conundrum then. You talked though about one of the problems bei..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0043", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0045" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser asks for actionable reform prescriptions; Jiang first answers through Camus and Sisyphus, warning that reforming Chinese education may be impossible because education is linked to politics, culture, and society.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0041", "segment_id": "seg-0041", "start": 1174.6, "end": 1194.92, "time_label": "19:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "You're a noted educational reform advocate. What's your prescription? I think we're all pretty clear on the diagnosis here, right? But what's your actual, what do you think are actionable steps that China can take? To f..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "segment_id": "seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "time_label": "19:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0043", "segment_id": "seg-0043", "start": 1219.36, "end": 1220.34, "time_label": "20:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "We're all familiar with that." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0045", "segment_id": "seg-0045", "start": 1242.38, "end": 1249.6, "time_label": "20:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I take it. I take it you're not ready to throw in the towel. I mean, this is your, your, this is what you do, right? I mean, clearly you must believe that there's something to be done. Sure." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0048" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang gives a three-part prescription: openness to criticism and new ideas, diversity across schools and local conditions, and a risk-taking culture that empowers principals and educators to experiment.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang answer; Kaiser pushes that the prescriptions feel too large.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0048", "segment_id": "seg-0048", "start": 1338.28, "end": 1351.06, "time_label": "22:18", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, pardon me, but I mean, I, I, well, I agree that these are, are, are, are all things that are necessary to be done. I, they don't feel to me like bite -size pieces that we could take. I mean, it feels like boilin..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0049", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0050", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The hosts call Jiang’s prescriptions almost impossible; Jiang answers that cultural change takes generations but China changes fast and its energy creates new opportunities.", "speaker_attribution": "Hosts challenge; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0049", "segment_id": "seg-0049", "start": 1351.2, "end": 1353.92, "time_label": "22:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Individual Sisyphean tasks in themselves almost." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0050", "segment_id": "seg-0050", "start": 1354.04, "end": 1367.22, "time_label": "22:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Exactly. They, they, they don't feel to me like, I mean, I, I would look at that and feel even a greater sense of futility. Like, these are the only things that, I mean, getting from A to B seems like a, a, a, a My God,..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0053", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0054", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "David and Kaiser list reform pressures, and Jiang describes a reform season after Wen Jiabao’s 2010 blueprint: Shenzhen experiments, private progressive schools, and university pressure to control admissions.", "speaker_attribution": "David/Kaiser questions; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0053", "segment_id": "seg-0053", "start": 1425.08, "end": 1463.84, "time_label": "23:45", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let, let me just point out also that, that in a lot of cases, what's happening is because the, the system is so entrenched, there's actually lots of movement in other areas that's forcing change. And you can comment bet..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0054", "segment_id": "seg-0054", "start": 1464.1, "end": 1471.48, "time_label": "24:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Right. Shixin, you, you used to work, in fact, at, at Shenzhen at the experimental school there. Tell, tell us what these experimental schools are and what's being done. Yeah." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0057", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "David asks about Tsinghua-style interviews and research admissions; Jiang says Gaokao reform is focused on diversifying admissions but public distrust of institutions makes reform politically fragile.", "speaker_attribution": "David question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0057", "segment_id": "seg-0057", "start": 1578.96, "end": 1590.64, "time_label": "26:18", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "-taking drones, robots. We need more critical thinkers. We need more creative individuals who will do very well in a, in a lab, in a classroom, asking questions and questioning authority. So," }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "segment_id": "seg-0058", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1598.32, "time_label": "26:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some, some actual research? Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The hosts pivot from study abroad numbers to cultural learning styles and ask Jiang to describe his own migration, Yale, and East Asian-American experience.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser and David prompt Jiang autobiographically.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "segment_id": "seg-0062", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1691.12, "time_label": "28:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year. Routinely." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "segment_id": "seg-0063", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1741.92, "time_label": "28:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "What's really interesting to me, though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being, you know, intimately acquainted with many others, is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064", "segment_id": "seg-0064", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1752.58, "time_label": "29:01", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "had, I think, in many ways, a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States. Could you talk a little bit about that?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0068" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang answers autobiographically: moving to Canada made him feel shy, bullied, socially fraudulent, and alienated at Yale; he returned to China while now helping students go abroad.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang answer with host aside.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "segment_id": "seg-0066", "start": 1798.18, "end": 1852.36, "time_label": "29:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Toronto, where being popular is very important and being cool and being good at sports and being good with girls. It's Canada. They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0068", "segment_id": "seg-0068", "start": 1870.34, "end": 1871.92, "time_label": "31:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Like fraternity hazing, you know." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang turns autobiography into a warning: Chinese schooling prepares students for Chinese society, but the American classroom demands speaking, debate, opinion, and uncertainty, producing confusion and alienation.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0071", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0072" ], "kind": "question", "summary": "David reports faculty emails about high-scoring PRC graduate students who struggle analytically and asks whether the problem is language, culture, or unrealistic expectations.", "speaker_attribution": "David Moser reporting and asking; Jiang answer follows in next packet.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0071", "segment_id": "seg-0071", "start": 1954.84, "end": 1998.264, "time_label": "32:34", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "I get emails all the time, and I just got one this week, so while I'm thinking about it, from friends of mine who are academics or professors in different universities. And they write to me because they know I'm in Chin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0072", "segment_id": "seg-0072", "start": 1998.264, "end": 2000.42, "time_label": "33:18", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "I don't know what to say to them exactly. All right." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074" ], "kind": "answer", "summary": "Jiang answers the faculty-email problem by moving to neuroscience: confident, happy students absorb new ideas, while stress triggers fight-or-flight shutdown and prevents contribution.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074", "segment_id": "seg-0074", "start": 2060.32, "end": 2077.56, "time_label": "34:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "mean, like, all of them are very bright to be able to go to the United States, right? And they could possibly have a lot to contribute. It's just that they are, you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts an..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0075", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0076" ], "kind": "monologue", "summary": "Kaiser offers a hybrid education theory: early play and plasticity, then a period of Chinese discipline and memorization, then exit before it is too late.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser Guo.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0075", "segment_id": "seg-0075", "start": 2077.72, "end": 2136.64, "time_label": "34:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "That accords with what I've seen. I have my own sort of pet theory about how best to do it. So for somebody of means. So somebody like you or me, David, who, I don't know, I don't know. Has the opportunity to pick and c..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0076", "segment_id": "seg-0076", "start": 2136.82, "end": 2168.7, "time_label": "35:36", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "You know, part of the reason why we have such a long period of helplessness as infants and as toddlers compared to other mammals, compared to other animals. Is that we do need this, this play time to, to develop the abi..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0080" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "David introduces Howard Gardner’s key-and-door example; Jiang says it is oversimplified but useful: America emphasizes learning by doing, China learning by memorizing, and China’s respect for hard work and sacrifice is worth preserving.", "speaker_attribution": "David question; Jiang answer; Kaiser follow-up.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0080", "segment_id": "seg-0080", "start": 2286.36, "end": 2299.7, "time_label": "38:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "And the negative side of that is, I mean, don't you kind of in, in your heart of hearts believe that America, the American school system coddles? The children, it, it sort of accepts all sorts of excuses for that. I thi..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0082", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0084", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Jiang and the hosts critique American schooling: instant gratification, disengagement, everyone-gets-a-prize mediocrity, and drugging children who cannot sit still.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang with Kaiser host amplification.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "segment_id": "seg-0081", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2317.02, "time_label": "38:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on about the defects in the American school system. I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification, right? Sure. You know, Postman wrote this boo..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0082", "segment_id": "seg-0082", "start": 2317.06, "end": 2323.06, "time_label": "38:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "The lionization of the mediocre. Everyone is, I mean, everyone gets a prize. Everyone gets a medal. Everyone gets a star. Yeah. Yeah." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "segment_id": "seg-0083", "start": 2323.06, "end": 2335.46, "time_label": "38:43", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "No. We've heard a lot of horror stories and clearly the students in America right now are disengaged from, from learning. The other issue that I'm concerned about is how we're drugging kids right now in the United State..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0084", "segment_id": "seg-0084", "start": 2335.56, "end": 2340.66, "time_label": "38:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Where, where, you know, like if you can't sit still, it's not going to give you this methamphetamine basically. Exactly." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0087", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0088" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Jiang still values America’s emphasis on the individual, openness, and diverse discussion; the hosts frame the needed balance between discipline and freedom, note media learning, and close the interview topic.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang, Kaiser, and David.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0087", "segment_id": "seg-0087", "start": 2408.7, "end": 2428.14, "time_label": "40:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Don't you think also that, you know, education, we tend to limit it to the schools and to parents, but kids and, and even the post nineties generation, they're learning an awful lot just by general cultural assimilation..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0088", "segment_id": "seg-0088", "start": 2428.26, "end": 2442.46, "time_label": "40:28", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "One eye on the clock here. I realized that we're, we're, we're running out of time here. And I do, I want to thank John for coming in and a rich topic. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one that we can, we can talk about endles..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "The recommendation segment extends the education discussion through Chinese writing: David recommends Asia’s Orthographic Dilemma, Kaiser defends character learning, and Jiang recommends Proust and the Squid to explain reading-brain costs of non-phonological script.", "speaker_attribution": "David, Kaiser, then Jiang.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "segment_id": "seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "time_label": "40:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas cal..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "segment_id": "seg-0090", "start": 2479.2, "end": 2495.88, "time_label": "41:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I kind of think that it, it actually is, is a, one of the tremendous things that, I mean, it teaches you to make these virtually, I mean, yes, of course we understand that radicals can, can give you some sort of phonemi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "segment_id": "seg-0091", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2525.78, "time_label": "41:36", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "And this particular book makes the case, at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case, that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or, or ce..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095" ], "kind": "monologue", "summary": "Kaiser recommends Baidu Predict, describing big-data predictions for sports, travel, disease, real estate, box office, and Gaokao score dispersion, while the hosts joke about determinism.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser Guo.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "segment_id": "seg-0093", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2626.64, "time_label": "42:53", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is to recommend something from the company that I work for, but I think this is a whole lot of fun. You guys ought to check it out. Go to Trends, T..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094", "segment_id": "seg-0094", "start": 2626.84, "end": 2689.76, "time_label": "43:46", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, two of the things that are coming are real estate prices and a theatrical release box office, which we'll be able to do. And there's explanations about how all this stuff works. But the other ones that we have o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095", "segment_id": "seg-0095", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2729, "time_label": "44:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts, I guess, but arts, letters, and social sciences. And then on the other hand, of course, sciences and engineering, natural sciences and engineering. And it'll go by region,..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096" ], "kind": "monologue", "summary": "Jiang recommends education books: Judith Rich Harris, David Brooks, Daniel Pink’s Drive, and Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers, emphasizing motivation, creativity, and useful debate.", "speaker_attribution": "Jiang.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "segment_id": "seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "time_label": "45:29", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a ve..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "kind": "exchange", "summary": "Kaiser challenges Outliers’ rice-farming thesis; Jiang answers that even flawed arguments can create discussion and debate, then recommends neuroplasticity and lifelong learning.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser question; Jiang answer.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "segment_id": "seg-0097", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2768.64, "time_label": "46:03", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible for better math and medical capability?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0099", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0100" ], "kind": "monologue", "summary": "The hosts close the Sinica episode with banter and show outro; final unknown segment is stray ASR noise.", "speaker_attribution": "Kaiser Guo; seg-0100 unknown/noise.", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0099", "segment_id": "seg-0099", "start": 2800.74, "end": 2815.26, "time_label": "46:40", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Oh, come on. Oh, Captain. My Captain. Come on. Anyway, thank you very much for joining us. And folks, we've got a bunch of really cool shows coming up in Sophie. So stay tuned. And we'll see you next week on The Cynic P..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0100", "segment_id": "seg-0100", "start": 2815.26, "end": 2815.8, "time_label": "46:55", "speaker": "UNKNOWN", "excerpt": "1" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "speaker_notes": [ { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "note": "Diarization mixes host banter and Jiang in seg-0006; the first clear Jiang answer is seg-0008.", "suggested_speaker": "Kaiser Guo through most of seg-0006; Jiang in brief welcome response and seg-0008 answer", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "note": "Some host questions are embedded inside Jiang-labelled spans, but the argumentative answer belongs to Jiang.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang with interviewer interruptions", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0022" ], "note": "Repeated “Yeah” material appears to be ASR or crosstalk; the substantive speaker remains Jiang.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "segment_id": "seg-0021", "start": 522.86, "end": 566.7, "time_label": "8:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese love taking tests, right? I mean, in America, you know, you say to a class, okay, we're doing a test today. All the kids groan, right? Except for that one Chinese kid in the back who's like, yes, this is my oppo..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0022", "segment_id": "seg-0022", "start": 566.7, "end": 576.94, "time_label": "9:26", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. never happen in America or in Europe. Right. There may have been some lift generated by the top -down kind of, you know, the central authorities wanting Shanghai to do well on t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030" ], "note": "Transcript phrase “major racism” likely ASR for “major resistance”; semantic interpretation follows the surrounding parent-resistance argument.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "note": "Transcript says “Chinese Democrats”; context indicates Chinese administrators/bureaucrats.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "note": "Boundary remains awkward around “first of all, the, the school system”; the three intended elements are openness, diversity, and risk-taking.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "note": "Transcript says “emits/emissions”; context means admits/admissions.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064" ], "note": "These are interviewer prompts rather than Jiang claims; they set up the autobiographical answer in the next packet.", "suggested_speaker": "Kaiser Guo", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0063", "segment_id": "seg-0063", "start": 1692.12, "end": 1741.92, "time_label": "28:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "What's really interesting to me, though, I mean, as a Chinese American growing up and being, you know, intimately acquainted with many others, is how the learning styles into which our parents were often inculcated, you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0064", "segment_id": "seg-0064", "start": 1741.92, "end": 1752.58, "time_label": "29:01", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "had, I think, in many ways, a typical experience for a lot of Asian Americans or for a lot of specifically East Asian Americans in the States. Could you talk a little bit about that?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "note": "SPEAKER_00 is Jiang; this is one of the source’s key autobiographical stretches.", "suggested_speaker": "Jiang", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0075", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078" ], "note": "Long non-Jiang passages are substantive interviewer theorizing/questions and should not be promoted as Jiang claims except where Jiang responds.", "suggested_speaker": "Kaiser and David", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0075", "segment_id": "seg-0075", "start": 2077.72, "end": 2136.64, "time_label": "34:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "That accords with what I've seen. I have my own sort of pet theory about how best to do it. So for somebody of means. So somebody like you or me, David, who, I don't know, I don't know. Has the opportunity to pick and c..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0087" ], "note": "David’s media-assimilation question receives little direct Jiang response before the show moves to recommendations.", "suggested_speaker": "David Moser", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0087", "segment_id": "seg-0087", "start": 2408.7, "end": 2428.14, "time_label": "40:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Don't you think also that, you know, education, we tend to limit it to the schools and to parents, but kids and, and even the post nineties generation, they're learning an awful lot just by general cultural assimilation..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095" ], "note": "Baidu Predict claims are Kaiser’s recommendation, not Jiang’s education argument.", "suggested_speaker": "Kaiser Guo", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "segment_id": "seg-0093", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2626.64, "time_label": "42:53", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is to recommend something from the company that I work for, but I think this is a whole lot of fun. You guys ought to check it out. Go to Trends, T..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095", "segment_id": "seg-0095", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2729, "time_label": "44:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts, I guess, but arts, letters, and social sciences. And then on the other hand, of course, sciences and engineering, natural sciences and engineering. And it'll go by region,..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0100" ], "note": "Final “1” is likely ASR noise or production artifact, not a speaker contribution.", "suggested_speaker": null, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0100", "segment_id": "seg-0100", "start": 2815.26, "end": 2815.8, "time_label": "46:55", "speaker": "UNKNOWN", "excerpt": "1" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "claims": [ { "claim": "Jiang says 12 Chinese provinces participated when PISA entered China in 2009, but only Shanghai results were publicly released in 2010 because OECD was confident in Shanghai methodology.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "temporal_scope": "Retrospective explanation given in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode about 2009-2010 PISA handling.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "shanghai", "oecd", "education-data" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The hosts frame Chinese education as a tension between high test performance and criticism of rote pedagogy, Gaokao teaching, rigidity, hierarchy, and cheating.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "temporal_scope": "Interview framing in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-education", "pisa", "gaokao", "rote-learning" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues PISA is skewed toward skills emphasized by East Asian education systems rather than neutral proof of general educational superiority.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012" ], "temporal_scope": "Diagnosis made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "east-asia", "test-bias" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says PISA only captures how fourteen-year-olds perform in school, an especially volatile age shaped by puberty and hormonal change.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014" ], "temporal_scope": "PISA critique made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "adolescence", "measurement" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "East Asian students have an advantage on PISA because their systems can train children to sit still and test for five hours.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "temporal_scope": "Comparison made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "test-culture", "east-asia", "discipline" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues education includes social interaction, mistakes, risk, and individual space; school literacy and numeracy are only one part of child development.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018" ], "temporal_scope": "Normative education model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "whole-child-education", "risk", "individual-space" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018", "segment_id": "seg-0018", "start": 401.2, "end": 457.12, "time_label": "6:41", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Wow. I mean, you guys are speaking on behalf of the Chinese education system. I'm not prepared for this. But what I would argue is that education encompasses many different spheres. And the school system, which focuses..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Every test, including IQ, SAT, Gaokao, and PISA, fundamentally tests the ability to do well on that test.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "temporal_scope": "Testing model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "testing", "iq", "sat", "gaokao", "pisa" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "East Asian students do well on tests because high-stakes testing is culturally ingrained and has roots going back thousands of years.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "temporal_scope": "Historical-cultural diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "east-asia", "testing-culture", "high-stakes-testing" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Shanghai K-12 is the strongest system China has for teaching fundamental literacy and numeracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "temporal_scope": "Evaluation stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "shanghai", "k12", "literacy", "numeracy" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "segment_id": "seg-0023", "start": 577.06, "end": 588.34, "time_label": "9:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "But I think it's pretty widely understood that Shanghai's educational system itself among Chinese cities and provinces is exceptionally good. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, in" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Modern Chinese education blends a Confucian civil-service examination tradition with a Stalinist project of creating literate, numerate factory workers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "temporal_scope": "Historical model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "confucian-exams", "stalinist-education", "proletariat" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "China education has three major goals: mass literacy/numeracy, nationwide political orthodoxy, and merit-oriented distribution of scarce education resources.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "temporal_scope": "System model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-education", "political-orthodoxy", "gaokao", "literacy" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "High-stakes testing equips many people with basic skills but limits creativity, empathy, judgment, and collaboration.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027" ], "temporal_scope": "Tradeoff diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "high-stakes-testing", "creativity", "empathy", "judgment" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "segment_id": "seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "time_label": "12:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And that's where China is most lacking right now." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese education reform is supported by universities and political-economic elites because the economy needs managers, designers, and entrepreneurs rather than only accountants and programmers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "education-reform", "economy", "entrepreneurship", "critical-thinking" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Parents resist reform because they read elite reforms as an attempt to remove the only fair ladder their children have.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Parent-resistance diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "parents", "gaokao", "social-mobility", "elite-trust" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "segment_id": "seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "time_label": "12:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang identifies monolithic top-down socialist bureaucracy as the first major structural problem in Chinese education.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Problem list begun in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "bureaucracy", "education-system", "top-down" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese society trusts test scores over teacher recommendations, qualitative measures, and institutions because Gaokao bypasses low institutional trust.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "temporal_scope": "Cultural-political diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "gaokao", "institutional-trust", "civil-society", "fairness" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Parents fear that without Gaokao, guanxi and elite monopoly will replace merit and leave middle- and lower-class families worse off.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "temporal_scope": "Parent-perspective model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "guanxi", "meritocracy", "social-mobility", "parents" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "A growing wealthy minority of parents exits Chinese education by sending children to the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and increasingly American high schools.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad trend described in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "parent-exit", "international-education" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "segment_id": "seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "time_label": "16:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy wi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Because reform-minded parents leave, they are not inside China fighting for reform.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform-politics diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "exit", "voice", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese administrators can speak reform language for visitors and media while continuing the same test-focused practices.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "temporal_scope": "Bureaucratic diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "doublethink", "bureaucracy", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang compares Chinese education reform to Sisyphus rolling the boulder because education is tied to politics, culture, and society.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "sisyphus", "education-reform", "politics", "culture" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "segment_id": "seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "time_label": "19:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The first requirement for reform is openness: Chinese schools must become more open to criticism and new ideas.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "openness", "criticism", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The second requirement is diversity because a monolithic pedagogy and textbook system is inappropriate for a country as varied as China.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "diversity", "local-schools", "monolithic-system" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The third requirement is risk-taking: principals and a new generation of educators must be empowered to try ideas, most of which will fail, until local formulas emerge.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "risk-taking", "principals", "experimentation", "local-formula" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang rejects simply importing AP or International Baccalaureate as the answer; China must discover a formula right for its own local schools.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription boundary stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "ap", "international-baccalaureate", "local-education" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese reform may look impossible but China changes in generational leaps and has unusual energy and dynamism.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform optimism stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode after reflecting on his prior 2000-2001 collapse prediction.", "topic_tags": [ "china-change", "education-reform", "experimentation" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The constant requirement is creating space for experimentation and innovation inside a powerful education bureaucracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "experimentation", "innovation", "bureaucracy" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says China entered a season of education reform after Wen Jiabao’s 2010 ten-year blueprint to shift from high-stakes testing toward a more progressive model.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform chronology described in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "wen-jiabao", "2010-blueprint", "progressive-education" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Southern University of Science and Technology in Shenzhen is presented as a hopeful experiment because it bypasses Gaokao and uses more holistic admissions.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform example assessed in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "shenzhen", "sustech", "gaokao", "holistic-admissions" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. 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But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Gaokao reform is trying to diversify admissions through interviews, high-school GPA, and academic achievements, but the unresolved question is public appetite for change.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "gaokao-reform", "admissions", "public-trust" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "segment_id": "seg-0058", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1598.32, "time_label": "26:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some, some actual research? Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Public distrust of government and institutions makes even good admissions reforms look like elite capture of education.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform-politics diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "institutional-trust", "elite-capture", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? 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Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "segment_id": "seg-0062", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1691.12, "time_label": "28:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year. Routinely." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says study abroad is personal and emotional for him because his own Canada/Yale experience left bullying, alienation, fraudulence, and psychological scars.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "temporal_scope": "Autobiographical evidence used in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "autobiography", "canada", "yale", "alienation" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "segment_id": "seg-0066", "start": 1798.18, "end": 1852.36, "time_label": "29:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Toronto, where being popular is very important and being cool and being good at sports and being good with girls. It's Canada. They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues China and the West are not a good marriage educationally: Chinese schools train not talking, not questioning authority, going with the flow, and leveraging guanxi networks, while American schools demand unique participation and argument.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "temporal_scope": "Cross-cultural education model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "authority", "western-education", "guanxi" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese students abroad can suffer psychological confusion and alienation because the habits that work in Chinese society become liabilities in American classrooms.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "psychological-alienation", "study-abroad", "classroom-culture" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says confidence and happiness make the brain more open to new ideas, while stress triggers fight-or-flight shutdown.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073" ], "temporal_scope": "Learning/neuroscience model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "learning", "stress", "neuroscience", "confidence" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese students abroad may be bright but blocked by fear, doubt, self-hatred, and withdrawal caused by cultural mismatch.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "alienation", "self-doubt" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074", "segment_id": "seg-0074", "start": 2060.32, "end": 2077.56, "time_label": "34:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "mean, like, all of them are very bright to be able to go to the United States, right? And they could possibly have a lot to contribute. It's just that they are, you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts an..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang accepts the Chinese/American door-key contrast as oversimplified but says it points to a real difference between learning by doing and learning by memorizing.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "temporal_scope": "Pedagogical comparison in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "learning-by-doing", "memorization", "problem-solving" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese education’s valuable lesson is respect for hard work and the understanding that growth may require sacrifice and painful hardship.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "temporal_scope": "Positive assessment of Chinese schooling in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "hard-work", "sacrifice", "discipline" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang criticizes American schooling for instant gratification, student disengagement, and medicating children with Adderall and Ritalin when they cannot sit still.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "temporal_scope": "American-school diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "american-education", "instant-gratification", "adhd-medication" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "segment_id": "seg-0081", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2317.02, "time_label": "38:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on about the defects in the American school system. I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification, right? Sure. You know, Postman wrote this boo..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "segment_id": "seg-0083", "start": 2323.06, "end": 2335.46, "time_label": "38:43", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "No. We've heard a lot of horror stories and clearly the students in America right now are disengaged from, from learning. The other issue that I'm concerned about is how we're drugging kids right now in the United State..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says American emphasis on the individual, openness, and diverse discussion is valuable for Chinese schools to learn from.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "temporal_scope": "Positive assessment of American schooling in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "individuality", "openness", "discussion", "chinese-education" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The hosts frame the educational problem as balancing discipline and freedom rather than essentializing China as discipline and America as freedom.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "temporal_scope": "Host synthesis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "discipline", "freedom", "balance" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese script is not phonological enough to read from characters alone, separating spoken and written language and making language learning take many more years.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "temporal_scope": "Reading-brain claim made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode while recommending Marianne Wolf.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-script", "reading-brain", "literacy", "phonology" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The hosts present Chinese character learning as both a burden on educational efficiency and a possible training in linking abstract symbols to ideas.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091" ], "temporal_scope": "Recommendation discussion in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "orthography", "chinese-characters", "abstraction" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "segment_id": "seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "time_label": "40:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas cal..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "segment_id": "seg-0090", "start": 2479.2, "end": 2495.88, "time_label": "41:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I kind of think that it, it actually is, is a, one of the tremendous things that, I mean, it teaches you to make these virtually, I mean, yes, of course we understand that radicals can, can give you some sort of phonemi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "segment_id": "seg-0091", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2525.78, "time_label": "41:36", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "And this particular book makes the case, at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case, that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or, or ce..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang recommends Drive because motivation can enhance or destroy student creativity, making it useful for educators.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096" ], "temporal_scope": "Book recommendation in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "motivation", "creativity", "drive", "education-books" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "segment_id": "seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "time_label": "45:29", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a ve..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang defends discussing Outliers because it creates debate, and creating discussion is what educators strive to accomplish.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "temporal_scope": "Education-method claim in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "debate", "education", "outliers" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "segment_id": "seg-0097", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2768.64, "time_label": "46:03", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible for better math and medical capability?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says neuroplasticity means adults can learn just as well as kids, so learning should be lifelong.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "temporal_scope": "Learning model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "neuroplasticity", "lifelong-learning", "adult-learning" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "signature_moments": [ { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "moment": "The interview opens by making China education a contradiction: Shanghai kicks serious ass on PISA while the same system is accused of manufacturing soulless automatons.", "source_phrase": "soulless automatons", "why_it_matters": "This contradiction drives the whole episode: China is good at what tests can see and bad at what creativity needs.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014" ], "moment": "PISA becomes less a truth machine than a five-hour test of whether a society can make fourteen-year-olds sit still.", "source_phrase": "sit still and do a test for five hours", "why_it_matters": "It turns Shanghai success from simple superiority into a measurement problem.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "moment": "Jiang strips tests of metaphysical authority: even IQ only tests the ability to do well on IQ.", "source_phrase": "any test, will just test your ability to do well on the test", "why_it_matters": "It becomes the conceptual solvent for PISA envy and Gaokao legitimacy.", "tone": "definition", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021" ], "moment": "The Chinese kid in the back cheers when the test is announced because the test is his arena of glory.", "source_phrase": "this is my opportunity to shine", "why_it_matters": "The comic image condenses Jiang’s testing-culture argument.", "tone": "image", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "segment_id": "seg-0021", "start": 522.86, "end": 566.7, "time_label": "8:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese love taking tests, right? I mean, in America, you know, you say to a class, okay, we're doing a test today. All the kids groan, right? Except for that one Chinese kid in the back who's like, yes, this is my oppo..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "moment": "The same machine that teaches the whole country to read also amputates the higher-order skills China now needs.", "source_phrase": "limits students in higher-order thinking skills", "why_it_matters": "It gives the episode its central tradeoff: meritocratic scale versus creative adulthood.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "moment": "Parents hear reform as the elite trying to screw them.", "source_phrase": "the elite is trying to screw them", "why_it_matters": "This explains why good reform language fails politically: distrust protects the test.", "tone": "provocation", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033" ], "moment": "Gaokao survives because it bypasses institutions in a society that does not trust institutions.", "source_phrase": "the Gaokao is that it bypasses institutions", "why_it_matters": "This turns the test from a mere exam into a substitute for civil society.", "tone": "definition", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "moment": "The families most able to demand reform leave the battlefield.", "source_phrase": "because they’re voting with their feet, their voice, they’re not actually in China advocating", "why_it_matters": "Exit drains the coalition that could change the system.", "tone": "causal-chain", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "moment": "Education reform becomes a public script administrators perform while privately doing the same old thing.", "source_phrase": "saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different", "why_it_matters": "It exposes reform rhetoric as institutional theater.", "tone": "provocation", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "moment": "Chinese education reform is Sisyphus pushing the boulder because the school is tied to everything else.", "source_phrase": "a Sisyphean struggle", "why_it_matters": "It gives the prescription a tragic scale: reform cannot be reduced to a classroom technique.", "tone": "metaphor", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "moment": "Most new ideas should be allowed to be stupid and fail because failure is how China finds its own school formula.", "source_phrase": "these new ideas will be stupid and they’ll fail", "why_it_matters": "This is Jiang’s pro-experiment reform ethic in its sharpest form.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051" ], "moment": "Jiang admits he once predicted China would collapse and was wrong; that memory lets him see dynamism where reform looks impossible.", "source_phrase": "Boy, was I wrong", "why_it_matters": "It keeps his reform optimism from sounding naive: it is learned from a prior failed prediction.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "moment": "Universities do not want test-taking drones and robots; they want people who can question authority in labs and classrooms.", "source_phrase": "test-taking drones, robots", "why_it_matters": "This is the cleanest image of what Gaokao produces and what research institutions reject.", "tone": "image", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ], "moment": "Every admissions innovation runs into the same suspicion: the elite will screw us over again if we trust them.", "source_phrase": "The elite is going to screw us over again if we trust them", "why_it_matters": "It restates the social-trust trap that makes reform technically plausible but politically unstable.", "tone": "provocation", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "moment": "Jiang’s work has an irony at its center: he ran from Western schooling scars into China and now helps Chinese students run toward the same danger.", "source_phrase": "helping students now go away", "why_it_matters": "It gives the study-abroad critique moral weight; he is not speaking as an outsider.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069" ], "moment": "China and the West are called a bad marriage because each school system trains a different social body.", "source_phrase": "China and the West is not a good marriage", "why_it_matters": "This phrase condenses the mismatch between social formation and classroom expectations.", "tone": "definition", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073" ], "moment": "Learning shuts down when the student’s body reads school as danger.", "source_phrase": "fight or flight response, and our system shuts down", "why_it_matters": "This is the mechanism connecting culture shock to intellectual underperformance.", "tone": "causal-chain", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078" ], "moment": "A child can learn to open a door, or learn what to do when nobody tells him how to open the door.", "source_phrase": "GPS, general problem solving", "why_it_matters": "The image explains the difference between skill acquisition and problem-forming agency.", "tone": "image", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "moment": "Chinese schooling’s gift is not creativity but the willingness to endure hardship for growth.", "source_phrase": "to grow as an individual, you might have to make sacrifices", "why_it_matters": "It prevents the episode from becoming simple anti-Chinese-schooling critique.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "moment": "The tiger father refuses the medical excuse for a child who wants to move.", "source_phrase": "The tiger father does not believe in ADD", "why_it_matters": "It captures Jiang’s impatience with American pathologizing while keeping the discipline critique alive.", "tone": "provocation", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "moment": "The episode’s synthesis becomes discipline and freedom, not China versus America.", "source_phrase": "a balance between discipline and freedom", "why_it_matters": "This gives the public read a compact ending principle for the education debate.", "tone": "definition", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "moment": "Chinese literacy becomes a neural and temporal tax because speech and script are not tightly joined.", "source_phrase": "the spoken language and the written language are separate", "why_it_matters": "It adds a material reading-brain layer to the earlier test-and-memorization critique.", "tone": "causal-chain", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095" ], "moment": "The Gaokao predictor makes education feel accurate and creepy at once.", "source_phrase": "I fear determinism", "why_it_matters": "The joke shows the dark side of predictive education metrics at the end of a testing episode.", "tone": "provocation", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095", "segment_id": "seg-0095", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2729, "time_label": "44:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts, I guess, but arts, letters, and social sciences. And then on the other hand, of course, sciences and engineering, natural sciences and engineering. And it'll go by region,..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "moment": "A bad or debatable book can still be educational if it provokes discussion.", "source_phrase": "It creates discussion. It creates debate.", "why_it_matters": "It gives a final teacherly rule: education is not agreement, it is productive argument.", "tone": "definition", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "moment": "Learning does not belong only to children; neuroplasticity keeps adulthood open.", "source_phrase": "adults can learn just as well as kids", "why_it_matters": "It closes the episode by widening education from school reform to lifelong human plasticity.", "tone": "reversal", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "predictions": [], "models": [ { "claim": "East Asian students have an advantage on PISA because their systems can train children to sit still and test for five hours.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "temporal_scope": "Comparison made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "test-culture", "east-asia", "discipline" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 376.72, "end": 385.26, "time_label": "6:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "I don't think you would find that many kids in America or in Europe who would actually sit still for like five hours and do a test. Is that an indictment of Chinese pedagogy? Or is that good?" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues education includes social interaction, mistakes, risk, and individual space; school literacy and numeracy are only one part of child development.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018" ], "temporal_scope": "Normative education model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "whole-child-education", "risk", "individual-space" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0018", "segment_id": "seg-0018", "start": 401.2, "end": 457.12, "time_label": "6:41", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Wow. I mean, you guys are speaking on behalf of the Chinese education system. I'm not prepared for this. But what I would argue is that education encompasses many different spheres. And the school system, which focuses..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Every test, including IQ, SAT, Gaokao, and PISA, fundamentally tests the ability to do well on that test.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "temporal_scope": "Testing model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "testing", "iq", "sat", "gaokao", "pisa" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Modern Chinese education blends a Confucian civil-service examination tradition with a Stalinist project of creating literate, numerate factory workers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "temporal_scope": "Historical model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "confucian-exams", "stalinist-education", "proletariat" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "China education has three major goals: mass literacy/numeracy, nationwide political orthodoxy, and merit-oriented distribution of scarce education resources.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "temporal_scope": "System model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-education", "political-orthodoxy", "gaokao", "literacy" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Parents fear that without Gaokao, guanxi and elite monopoly will replace merit and leave middle- and lower-class families worse off.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "temporal_scope": "Parent-perspective model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "guanxi", "meritocracy", "social-mobility", "parents" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang compares Chinese education reform to Sisyphus rolling the boulder because education is tied to politics, culture, and society.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "sisyphus", "education-reform", "politics", "culture" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "segment_id": "seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "time_label": "19:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues China and the West are not a good marriage educationally: Chinese schools train not talking, not questioning authority, going with the flow, and leveraging guanxi networks, while American schools demand unique participation and argument.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "temporal_scope": "Cross-cultural education model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "authority", "western-education", "guanxi" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says confidence and happiness make the brain more open to new ideas, while stress triggers fight-or-flight shutdown.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073" ], "temporal_scope": "Learning/neuroscience model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "learning", "stress", "neuroscience", "confidence" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang accepts the Chinese/American door-key contrast as oversimplified but says it points to a real difference between learning by doing and learning by memorizing.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "temporal_scope": "Pedagogical comparison in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "learning-by-doing", "memorization", "problem-solving" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0077", "segment_id": "seg-0077", "start": 2168.7, "end": 2207.72, "time_label": "36:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Let me ask, there's a book by Howard Gardner. That's probably way out of date. Yeah. Well, no, that one, but there's also one called To Open Minds. It's specifically about China. Yeah. Sure. And the example, and I've gi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The hosts frame the educational problem as balancing discipline and freedom rather than essentializing China as discipline and America as freedom.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "temporal_scope": "Host synthesis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "discipline", "freedom", "balance" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The hosts present Chinese character learning as both a burden on educational efficiency and a possible training in linking abstract symbols to ideas.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091" ], "temporal_scope": "Recommendation discussion in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "orthography", "chinese-characters", "abstraction" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0089", "segment_id": "seg-0089", "start": 2442.46, "end": 2479.2, "time_label": "40:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Okay. This week. Again, keeping, avoiding attention deficit disorder. I'm going to recommend something in keeping with this topic. So one book in particular, but there's two books. There's a book by William C. Hanas cal..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0090", "segment_id": "seg-0090", "start": 2479.2, "end": 2495.88, "time_label": "41:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I kind of think that it, it actually is, is a, one of the tremendous things that, I mean, it teaches you to make these virtually, I mean, yes, of course we understand that radicals can, can give you some sort of phonemi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0091", "segment_id": "seg-0091", "start": 2496.06, "end": 2525.78, "time_label": "41:36", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "And this particular book makes the case, at least the ergonomic case or the efficiency case, that, that it is such a drag on the educational system and also is a hindrance to certain kinds of critical thinking or, or ce..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says neuroplasticity means adults can learn just as well as kids, so learning should be lifelong.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "temporal_scope": "Learning model stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "neuroplasticity", "lifelong-learning", "adult-learning" ], "claim_type": "model", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "diagnoses": [ { "claim": "The hosts frame Chinese education as a tension between high test performance and criticism of rote pedagogy, Gaokao teaching, rigidity, hierarchy, and cheating.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "temporal_scope": "Interview framing in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-education", "pisa", "gaokao", "rote-learning" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang argues PISA is skewed toward skills emphasized by East Asian education systems rather than neutral proof of general educational superiority.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012" ], "temporal_scope": "Diagnosis made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "east-asia", "test-bias" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says PISA only captures how fourteen-year-olds perform in school, an especially volatile age shaped by puberty and hormonal change.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014" ], "temporal_scope": "PISA critique made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "adolescence", "measurement" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "East Asian students do well on tests because high-stakes testing is culturally ingrained and has roots going back thousands of years.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020" ], "temporal_scope": "Historical-cultural diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "east-asia", "testing-culture", "high-stakes-testing" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Shanghai K-12 is the strongest system China has for teaching fundamental literacy and numeracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "temporal_scope": "Evaluation stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "shanghai", "k12", "literacy", "numeracy" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0023", "segment_id": "seg-0023", "start": 577.06, "end": 588.34, "time_label": "9:37", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "But I think it's pretty widely understood that Shanghai's educational system itself among Chinese cities and provinces is exceptionally good. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, in" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "High-stakes testing equips many people with basic skills but limits creativity, empathy, judgment, and collaboration.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027" ], "temporal_scope": "Tradeoff diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "high-stakes-testing", "creativity", "empathy", "judgment" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0027", "segment_id": "seg-0027", "start": 737.08, "end": 740.32, "time_label": "12:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And that's where China is most lacking right now." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese education reform is supported by universities and political-economic elites because the economy needs managers, designers, and entrepreneurs rather than only accountants and programmers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "education-reform", "economy", "entrepreneurship", "critical-thinking" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Parents resist reform because they read elite reforms as an attempt to remove the only fair ladder their children have.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Parent-resistance diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "parents", "gaokao", "social-mobility", "elite-trust" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0029", "segment_id": "seg-0029", "start": 778.54, "end": 813.36, "time_label": "12:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "You know, we always have this problem with, as soon as you try to reform the gaokao or if you suggest, for example, lowering the percentage of English or reforming it in such a way as to encourage creativity, that one o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang identifies monolithic top-down socialist bureaucracy as the first major structural problem in Chinese education.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032" ], "temporal_scope": "Problem list begun in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "bureaucracy", "education-system", "top-down" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0032", "segment_id": "seg-0032", "start": 850.46, "end": 907.8, "time_label": "14:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And during the May 4th era. That's right. And the communist elite, people who run the economy, are concerned that the education system is not producing the workers necessary to maintain China's economic development. So..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese society trusts test scores over teacher recommendations, qualitative measures, and institutions because Gaokao bypasses low institutional trust.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "temporal_scope": "Cultural-political diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "gaokao", "institutional-trust", "civil-society", "fairness" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0033", "segment_id": "seg-0033", "start": 908.08, "end": 955.92, "time_label": "15:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "As we know, bureaucracies are always resistant to any change. There's bureaucratic inertia. So that's one major problem. But then the other problems are cultural, which is that, you know, China, it's very much a society..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "A growing wealthy minority of parents exits Chinese education by sending children to the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and increasingly American high schools.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad trend described in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "parent-exit", "international-education" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0036", "segment_id": "seg-0036", "start": 999.98, "end": 1029.98, "time_label": "16:39", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Can I point out something with, along the subject of parents, there's two contradictory groups of parents. One of the ones that we just were talking about that, that say, you know, they're very test oriented. They want..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy wi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Because reform-minded parents leave, they are not inside China fighting for reform.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform-politics diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "exit", "voice", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese administrators can speak reform language for visitors and media while continuing the same test-focused practices.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040" ], "temporal_scope": "Bureaucratic diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "doublethink", "bureaucracy", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0040", "segment_id": "seg-0040", "start": 1134.94, "end": 1174.48, "time_label": "18:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese administrators, Chinese Democrats are amazing at double think. So they're very good at, you know, saying something in public and then actually doing something completely different. So you visit a lot of high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese reform may look impossible but China changes in generational leaps and has unusual energy and dynamism.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform optimism stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode after reflecting on his prior 2000-2001 collapse prediction.", "topic_tags": [ "china-change", "education-reform", "experimentation" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Private progressive schools and Peking/Tsinghua admissions reform efforts are evidence of pressure against test-taking drones and toward critical thinkers.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform trend described in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "private-schools", "peking-university", "tsinghua", "critical-thinking" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Gaokao reform is trying to diversify admissions through interviews, high-school GPA, and academic achievements, but the unresolved question is public appetite for change.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "gaokao-reform", "admissions", "public-trust" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0058", "segment_id": "seg-0058", "start": 1590.68, "end": 1598.32, "time_label": "26:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Was it Tsinghua that was also going to open up some, some actual research? Interviews, personal interviews with certain applicants? Was it Tsinghua or what's going on with that? Right." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Public distrust of government and institutions makes even good admissions reforms look like elite capture of education.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform-politics diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "institutional-trust", "elite-capture", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Study abroad is a major trend because many young Chinese are seeking global education.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad trend discussed in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "global-education", "chinese-students" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "segment_id": "seg-0062", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1691.12, "time_label": "28:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year. Routinely." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese students abroad can suffer psychological confusion and alienation because the habits that work in Chinese society become liabilities in American classrooms.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "psychological-alienation", "study-abroad", "classroom-culture" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0070", "segment_id": "seg-0070", "start": 1930.1, "end": 1954.32, "time_label": "32:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The professor expects you to say something interesting or unique in classroom discussion. The professor expects you to write a paper and advocate your opinion, whether it's right or wrong. These are all hallmarks of the..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Chinese students abroad may be bright but blocked by fear, doubt, self-hatred, and withdrawal caused by cultural mismatch.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074" ], "temporal_scope": "Study-abroad diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "study-abroad", "alienation", "self-doubt" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0074", "segment_id": "seg-0074", "start": 2060.32, "end": 2077.56, "time_label": "34:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "mean, like, all of them are very bright to be able to go to the United States, right? And they could possibly have a lot to contribute. It's just that they are, you know, they're handicapped by their fears and doubts an..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang criticizes American schooling for instant gratification, student disengagement, and medicating children with Adderall and Ritalin when they cannot sit still.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "temporal_scope": "American-school diagnosis in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "american-education", "instant-gratification", "adhd-medication" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "segment_id": "seg-0081", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2317.02, "time_label": "38:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on about the defects in the American school system. I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification, right? Sure. You know, Postman wrote this boo..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0083", "segment_id": "seg-0083", "start": 2323.06, "end": 2335.46, "time_label": "38:43", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "No. We've heard a lot of horror stories and clearly the students in America right now are disengaged from, from learning. The other issue that I'm concerned about is how we're drugging kids right now in the United State..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese script is not phonological enough to read from characters alone, separating spoken and written language and making language learning take many more years.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "temporal_scope": "Reading-brain claim made in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode while recommending Marianne Wolf.", "topic_tags": [ "chinese-script", "reading-brain", "literacy", "phonology" ], "claim_type": "diagnosis", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "other_claims": [ { "claim": "Jiang says 12 Chinese provinces participated when PISA entered China in 2009, but only Shanghai results were publicly released in 2010 because OECD was confident in Shanghai methodology.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "temporal_scope": "Retrospective explanation given in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode about 2009-2010 PISA handling.", "topic_tags": [ "pisa", "shanghai", "oecd", "education-data" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The first requirement for reform is openness: Chinese schools must become more open to criticism and new ideas.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "openness", "criticism", "education-reform" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The second requirement is diversity because a monolithic pedagogy and textbook system is inappropriate for a country as varied as China.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "diversity", "local-schools", "monolithic-system" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The third requirement is risk-taking: principals and a new generation of educators must be empowered to try ideas, most of which will fail, until local formulas emerge.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "risk-taking", "principals", "experimentation", "local-formula" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang rejects simply importing AP or International Baccalaureate as the answer; China must discover a formula right for its own local schools.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "temporal_scope": "Prescription boundary stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "ap", "international-baccalaureate", "local-education" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "The constant requirement is creating space for experimentation and innovation inside a powerful education bureaucracy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform prescription stated in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "experimentation", "innovation", "bureaucracy" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0052", "segment_id": "seg-0052", "start": 1410.34, "end": 1424.94, "time_label": "23:30", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, I think that in the coming years, we're going to see new opportunities. But, but again, I think the former remains the same, which is like, you know, we have to create space for experimentation, innovation within th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says China entered a season of education reform after Wen Jiabao’s 2010 ten-year blueprint to shift from high-stakes testing toward a more progressive model.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform chronology described in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "wen-jiabao", "2010-blueprint", "progressive-education" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Southern University of Science and Technology in Shenzhen is presented as a hopeful experiment because it bypasses Gaokao and uses more holistic admissions.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "temporal_scope": "Reform example assessed in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "shenzhen", "sustech", "gaokao", "holistic-admissions" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says study abroad is personal and emotional for him because his own Canada/Yale experience left bullying, alienation, fraudulence, and psychological scars.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "temporal_scope": "Autobiographical evidence used in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "autobiography", "canada", "yale", "alienation" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0066", "segment_id": "seg-0066", "start": 1798.18, "end": 1852.36, "time_label": "29:58", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Toronto, where being popular is very important and being cool and being good at sports and being good with girls. It's Canada. They can just forget about trying to be cool. Right. Sure. But I had a very tough time growi..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says Chinese education’s valuable lesson is respect for hard work and the understanding that growth may require sacrifice and painful hardship.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079" ], "temporal_scope": "Positive assessment of Chinese schooling in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "hard-work", "sacrifice", "discipline" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0079", "segment_id": "seg-0079", "start": 2236.76, "end": 2286.28, "time_label": "37:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, like it's, it's an oversimplification. I mean, the other comparison you can say is that, you know, Americans play sports, whereas Chinese just play the video game sports, right? I mean, like you, you..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang says American emphasis on the individual, openness, and diverse discussion is valuable for Chinese schools to learn from.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085" ], "temporal_scope": "Positive assessment of American schooling in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "individuality", "openness", "discussion", "chinese-education" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0085", "segment_id": "seg-0085", "start": 2340.68, "end": 2381.72, "time_label": "39:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And then we're going to kill your brain and it's because you can't sit still. But no one thinks, well, the kid can't stand still because he's a six year old and he's, you know, energetic and enthusiastic and he wants to..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang recommends Drive because motivation can enhance or destroy student creativity, making it useful for educators.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096" ], "temporal_scope": "Book recommendation in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "motivation", "creativity", "drive", "education-books" ], "claim_type": "evidence", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0096", "segment_id": "seg-0096", "start": 2729.2, "end": 2762.58, "time_label": "45:29", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Great. Zhang Xieqin. So books on education, I recommend. So definitely the book called The Natural Assumption by Judith Rich Harris. It's a book that's really interesting. It's a social animal. David Brooks. That's a ve..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "claim": "Jiang defends discussing Outliers because it creates debate, and creating discussion is what educators strive to accomplish.", "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "temporal_scope": "Education-method claim in the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode.", "topic_tags": [ "debate", "education", "outliers" ], "claim_type": "normative", "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0097", "segment_id": "seg-0097", "start": 2763.06, "end": 2768.64, "time_label": "46:03", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Doesn't it put out that silly notion that rice farming is responsible for better math and medical capability?" }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "glossary_terms": [ { "term": "Baidu Predict", "usages": [ "Kaiser’s example of large-scale big-data prediction, including Gaokao score projections." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "segment_id": "seg-0093", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2626.64, "time_label": "42:53", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is to recommend something from the company that I work for, but I think this is a whole lot of fun. You guys ought to check it out. Go to Trends, T..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094", "segment_id": "seg-0094", "start": 2626.84, "end": 2689.76, "time_label": "43:46", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, two of the things that are coming are real estate prices and a theatrical release box office, which we'll be able to do. And there's explanations about how all this stuff works. But the other ones that we have o..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0095", "segment_id": "seg-0095", "start": 2689.76, "end": 2729, "time_label": "44:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "the arts and letters or you're looking at arts, I guess, but arts, letters, and social sciences. And then on the other hand, of course, sciences and engineering, natural sciences and engineering. And it'll go by region,..." } ] }, { "term": "Confucian examination system", "usages": [ "Historical civil-service examination tradition used to demonstrate orthodoxy and conformity to the system." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ] }, { "term": "discipline and freedom", "usages": [ "Host synthesis for the desired middle path between Chinese and American pedagogical strengths." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0086", "segment_id": "seg-0086", "start": 2382.94, "end": 2407.64, "time_label": "39:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, once again, I always feel like everything in life is a kind of a balance between discipline and freedom. It's always finding the right balance as with so many other things. And in this case, it's kind of, even t..." } ] }, { "term": "fight-or-flight learning shutdown", "usages": [ "Jiang’s neuroscience explanation for why stressed students cannot absorb new ideas effectively." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0073", "segment_id": "seg-0073", "start": 2000.44, "end": 2060.32, "time_label": "33:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what makes us human special is our resilience, our ability to grow, to adapt. But the problem is that when Chinese go to America, the culture is so foreign to these Chinese students, so open, so diverse, so vocal, th..." } ] }, { "term": "Gaokao", "usages": [ "China college entrance exam, introduced by the host as the center of teaching-to-the-test criticism." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." } ] }, { "term": "Gaokao reform", "usages": [ "Attempts to change the national exam/admissions system through interviews, GPA, achievements, and diversified criteria." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0059", "segment_id": "seg-0059", "start": 1598.32, "end": 1651.828, "time_label": "26:38", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, so, so the Gaokao, that's the major area of focus. So the idea of Gaokao is how do we go about changing it in a way that's acceptable to the public? So they're looking at many different models, including diversifyin..." } ] }, { "term": "general problem solving", "usages": [ "The meta-skill learned when a child figures out an unfamiliar situation rather than being guided step-by-step." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0078", "segment_id": "seg-0078", "start": 2207.94, "end": 2236.7, "time_label": "36:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "The, the American approach on the other hand is supposed to be, you just hand the key to the kid and say, you figure out how to open the door. And so the kid tries and struggles and everything that they finally get it...." } ] }, { "term": "guanxi", "usages": [ "Personal connection networks that parents fear would replace exam merit if Gaokao were removed." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0035", "segment_id": "seg-0035", "start": 969.5, "end": 999.66, "time_label": "16:09", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Exactly. So again, the issue is that China is a very large country, huge population with very limited education resources. Peking and Tsinghua are the two best universities. Everyone's trying to test into it. Everyone's..." } ] }, { "term": "guanxi network", "usages": [ "Rendered by ASR as “frequency network”; the social network students learn to leverage in China." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." } ] }, { "term": "higher-order thinking skills", "usages": [ "Creativity, empathy, judgment, and collaboration, which Jiang says high-stakes testing suppresses." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." } ] }, { "term": "holistic admissions", "usages": [ "Admissions based on criteria beyond one exam score, including non-Gaokao measures." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." } ] }, { "term": "instantaneous gratification", "usages": [ "Jiang’s shorthand for a defect in American student culture that weakens learning seriousness." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0081", "segment_id": "seg-0081", "start": 2299.9, "end": 2317.02, "time_label": "38:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I mean like I could go on and on about the defects in the American school system. I mean, they sort of like the culture of instant instantaneous gratification, right? Sure. You know, Postman wrote this boo..." } ] }, { "term": "lifelong learning", "usages": [ "Jiang’s conclusion that learning should continue across adulthood because neuroplasticity remains possible." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ] }, { "term": "neuroplasticity", "usages": [ "The brain’s ability to change and learn, used here to support lifelong adult learning." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ] }, { "term": "non-phonological script", "usages": [ "A writing system where characters do not reliably tell the reader how to pronounce them, increasing learning burden." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ] }, { "term": "PISA", "usages": [ "Program for International Student Assessment, used here as the international test where Shanghai ranked first and became the trigger for the China education debate." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 77.5, "end": 130.02, "time_label": "1:17", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Very positive reports from my friend Alison Friedman. Anyway, by wonderful coincidence, we actually will be talking about educational exchange among other aspects of education in China. Education in China is sometimes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ] }, { "term": "political orthodoxy", "usages": [ "The shared historical and political worldview Jiang says the school system indoctrinates across China." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0026", "segment_id": "seg-0026", "start": 684.48, "end": 736.64, "time_label": "11:24", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So the system is very good at indoctrinating a sort of political orthodoxy throughout the country. And the third major goal was basically to distribute scarce education resources in the fairest and most merit -oriented..." } ] }, { "term": "progressive education", "usages": [ "Reform model opposed to high-stakes testing, represented here by holistic admissions and private schools adapted for Chinese students." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0056", "segment_id": "seg-0056", "start": 1527.36, "end": 1578.96, "time_label": "25:27", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "We, we're seeing mixed results from schools so far. We're not really sure how the experiment is, is going to turn out. But, you know, the fact that Shenzhen, which is a city of 7 million people, a very wealthy governmen..." } ] }, { "term": "psychological preparedness", "usages": [ "The readiness Chinese students need before entering American classroom and workplace cultures that reward debate and self-assertion." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." } ] }, { "term": "reading brain", "usages": [ "The neuroscience of how humans learn to read, invoked through Marianne Wolf’s Proust and the Squid." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0092", "segment_id": "seg-0092", "start": 2525.86, "end": 2573.62, "time_label": "42:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "David, I'm, I'm trying to expand your point and make another recommendation. This book by Marianne Wolf, who is this neuroscientist at Tufts University. She wrote a book called Proust and the Squid is, but the idea in t..." } ] }, { "term": "risk-taking culture", "usages": [ "A school culture that lets principals and educators try, fail, and discover locally appropriate models." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ] }, { "term": "Sisyphean struggle", "usages": [ "Jiang’s metaphor for education reform as an apparently futile task linked to the whole social order." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0042", "segment_id": "seg-0042", "start": 1195.06, "end": 1219.28, "time_label": "19:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. I'm not sure if you gentlemen have a chance to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. Yeah. And so the idea of the essay is that Sisyphus was this Greek king who offended the gods. So the gods became so pissed..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0044", "segment_id": "seg-0044", "start": 1220.38, "end": 1242.32, "time_label": "20:20", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And the boulder would just come right down after, you know, you roll up the hill. So it was a very futile, eternal task. And you can make the argument that Chinese education system, reforming the system here is a, is th..." } ] }, { "term": "sit flesh", "usages": [ "Host-introduced German virtue for the ability to sit for hours and concentrate; used to pressure Jiang on whether discipline is also an advantage." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0017" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 316.72, "end": 376.04, "time_label": "5:16", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. My issues with the PISA are many. But the first issue is that the PISA test is a snapshot of the education system through the eyes of a 14 -year -old. So only 14 -year -olds are tested. So that's tested from the a..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0017", "segment_id": "seg-0017", "start": 386.28, "end": 400.4, "time_label": "6:26", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Is that good? There's this German sort of virtue that they have. They have a word for it, which means sit flesh, the ability to sit for hours and concentrate. Why is that not an advantage? Stick -to -itivity. Yeah, stic..." } ] }, { "term": "study abroad", "usages": [ "The trend of Chinese students leaving for secondary or post-secondary education overseas." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0060", "segment_id": "seg-0060", "start": 1651.828, "end": 1669.4, "time_label": "27:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "And And that question isn't being settled right now. The other major trend that we're seeing, and David alluded to this much earlier, is study abroad. Study abroad is a very exciting trend because you have all these you..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." } ] }, { "term": "test skew", "usages": [ "The claim that a test rewards culturally trained skills rather than measuring all forms of educational quality." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 263.32, "end": 302.68, "time_label": "4:23", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Absolutely. So it's basically Shanghai, then you have South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Taiwan. Hong Kong, Japan. Hong Kong, Macau, they're in the top 10 for sure. Right. So these Asian countries dominate these PISA ranki..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0013", "segment_id": "seg-0013", "start": 302.7, "end": 316.7, "time_label": "5:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "No, I was just going to say the way you put that, though, is perhaps suspect. You said it indicates that the test is skewed. But I mean, what is the proof of that? I mean, they could say also that we just excel in these..." } ] }, { "term": "testing culture", "usages": [ "A culture where high-stakes testing is deeply ingrained and test performance becomes a route to status and mobility." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0020", "segment_id": "seg-0020", "start": 469.96, "end": 522.48, "time_label": "7:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, I mean, Kaiser, you can make the argument that every test is fundamentally biased. We've spent, you know, decades of research, researching tests like the IQ test, the IQ test, the IQ test, the SAT. And what we've..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0021", "segment_id": "seg-0021", "start": 522.86, "end": 566.7, "time_label": "8:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Chinese love taking tests, right? I mean, in America, you know, you say to a class, okay, we're doing a test today. All the kids groan, right? Except for that one Chinese kid in the back who's like, yes, this is my oppo..." } ] }, { "term": "voting with their feet", "usages": [ "Leaving China’s education system through emigration or study abroad instead of staying to advocate reform." ], "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0038", "segment_id": "seg-0038", "start": 1080, "end": 1097.84, "time_label": "18:00", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Yeah. And possibly for junior high school. A lot of parents are choosing to immigrate to America, to Canada, to New Zealand. Just for purposes of educating their children. Exactly. So this is a major issue. But the prob..." } ] } ], "chronology_notes": [ { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "note": "Jiang dates China PISA participation to 2009 and public Shanghai-only release to 2010.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 184.98, "end": 219.38, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Well, in 2009, PISA entered China for the first time, and 12 provinces, including Shanghai, participated in the PISA. And in 2010, when the results were publicly released, only results from Shanghai were announced. And..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "note": "Jiang dates the Stalinist/proletarian education layer to China’s 1950s economic-building period.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030" ], "note": "Jiang links Chinese university-led reform advocacy to the era of Cai Yuanpei and May Fourth, then to present university concerns.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0030", "segment_id": "seg-0030", "start": 813.52, "end": 844.26, "time_label": "13:33", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Right. Do you feel like that's starting to change at all? You're absolutely right in that the major racism is coming from parents. So what's happening in China right now is that the ones who are most advocating educatio..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037" ], "note": "Jiang cites an Open Doors report from a few months before the interview and says more than 400,000 Chinese were studying in U.S. higher education, excluding high school students.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0037", "segment_id": "seg-0037", "start": 1030.44, "end": 1079.84, "time_label": "17:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So it's kind of a weird situation. Well, I mean, it is a weird situation and David's absolutely right. There are now two major factions of parents. The majority, of course. Of course, are those who are probably happy wi..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051" ], "note": "Jiang recalls that in 2000-2001 he predicted China would collapse, then uses his fifteen years in China to say China changed instead.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": true, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0051", "segment_id": "seg-0051", "start": 1367.3, "end": 1410.18, "time_label": "22:47", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "This is the sort of thing that only happens in generations. And you guys have been here in China for a long time. I've been in China for 15 years. And what we've seen in China is that it changes a lot. It changes very q..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055" ], "note": "Wen Jiabao’s 2010 education reform blueprint is named as a ten-year reform marker.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0055", "segment_id": "seg-0055", "start": 1471.48, "end": 1527, "time_label": "24:31", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So, right now is a season for education reform in China. In 2010, the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, announced a major education reform blueprint for the next 10 years. Plans to shift China from, you know, a high -stakes t..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062" ], "note": "Hosts cite large and rapidly growing Chinese student enrollment abroad, including figures around 200,000-235,000 and routine doubling at some schools.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0061", "segment_id": "seg-0061", "start": 1669.5, "end": 1686.1, "time_label": "27:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, that's, that's an important thing. You had mentioned a figure of about 200,000 currently enrolled in secondary, I mean, post -secondary educational institutions. I've seen another figure of just last year, 235,0..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0062", "segment_id": "seg-0062", "start": 1686.44, "end": 1691.12, "time_label": "28:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "Schools have routinely seen their Chinese students double every year. Routinely." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067" ], "note": "In the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode, Jiang links his childhood migration to Canada, later Yale experience, and return to China as the autobiographical basis for his study-abroad warning.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "high", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0065", "segment_id": "seg-0065", "start": 1752.74, "end": 1798.18, "time_label": "29:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about. You know, study abroad, it's a very personal issue for me because, as you say, I was an immigrant to Canada and I came back to work in the education syst..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0067", "segment_id": "seg-0067", "start": 1852.36, "end": 1870.32, "time_label": "30:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "basically decided that I wanted to run away from all of this and then come to China. And the irony, of course, is that I'm helping students now go away. I'm helping students go abroad and potentially encounter the same..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094" ], "note": "Kaiser describes Baidu Predict features active at the time of the 2014-07-14 Sinica episode and upcoming stock/real-estate/box-office prediction features.", "possible_update_to_prior_position": false, "confidence": "medium", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0093", "segment_id": "seg-0093", "start": 2573.98, "end": 2626.64, "time_label": "42:53", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, so I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is to recommend something from the company that I work for, but I think this is a whole lot of fun. You guys ought to check it out. Go to Trends, T..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0094", "segment_id": "seg-0094", "start": 2626.84, "end": 2689.76, "time_label": "43:46", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I mean, two of the things that are coming are real estate prices and a theatrical release box office, which we'll be able to do. And there's explanations about how all this stuff works. But the other ones that we have o..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "uncertainty_notes": [ { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "note": "Segment contains multiple speakers in one diarized span; treat host question and Jiang welcome response cautiously.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 130.02, "end": 182.86, "time_label": "2:10", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "in the pedagogical system in China, and about the rampant cheating that may result from some of the above. So today we're delighted to be joined by Jiang Xueqin, who is deputy principal of Tsinghua Fuzhong, the high sch..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024" ], "note": "Transcript says “confusion system” and “manual system”; context indicates Confucian/civil-service examination system, but the pass avoids silently normalizing the source text in quoted phrases.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0024", "segment_id": "seg-0024", "start": 588.34, "end": 643.82, "time_label": "9:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "terms of teaching kids fundamental skills, especially numerous in literacy, the Chinese education system is very good. And the Shanghai school system is at the K -12 level, the very best China has to offer. What does it..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025" ], "note": "Transcript says “first major objective” twice; Jiang appears to be enumerating three goals, but ASR/order is slightly damaged.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0025", "segment_id": "seg-0025", "start": 644.14, "end": 684.4, "time_label": "10:44", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "So what we have in China is basically a blended model of a confusion system with a Stalinist system. The system has three major objectives. The first major objective is to make sure that the Chinese education system is..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047" ], "note": "ASR/boundary damage obscures part of the diversity prescription, but the list structure remains clear from surrounding text.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0046", "segment_id": "seg-0046", "start": 1249.8, "end": 1302.9, "time_label": "20:49", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Okay. So I believe the prescription for education reform is to create a creative and innovative culture in education. And that requires three things. One is openness. The openness to new ideas. The openness to criticism..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0047", "segment_id": "seg-0047", "start": 1302.9, "end": 1338.06, "time_label": "21:42", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "the school system in China. And third is basically to create a culture of risk -taking. To basically empower principals to try new things. And most of the time, these new ideas will be stupid and they'll fail. But then..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069" ], "note": "Transcript phrase “frequency network” likely means guanxi network, based on surrounding China social-skills context.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0069", "segment_id": "seg-0069", "start": 1872.1, "end": 1929.68, "time_label": "31:12", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "But at the same time, because I've had this experience and because I see the dangers, the inherent dangers of Chinese encountering a Western education system. I'm a very vocal critic of this trend. Actually, I write a l..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "refs": [ "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098" ], "note": "Book author appears in transcript as Norman Dodge; likely Norman Doidge, but the semantic note preserves the transcript wording.", "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-875hvfdrxzy@transcript:v1#seg-0098", "segment_id": "seg-0098", "start": 2768.78, "end": 2799.84, "time_label": "46:08", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "You know what? It creates discussion. It creates debate. And that's what we strive to accomplish as educators. The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Dodge. It's a book on neuroplasticity. So basically how we learn. An..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ] }