{ "generated_by": "Generated by ops/scripts/compile-content.mjs. Do not edit by hand.", "generated_at": "deterministic", "slug": "interview-2-rt358x96i", "id": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i", "source_class": "interview", "collection": "interviews", "title": "Empowering Teachers for Creativity [Debate WISE 2014]", "source_url": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Rt358X96I", "video_id": "2_Rt358X96I", "embed_url": "https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/2_Rt358X96I", "published_at": "2015-03-11", "recorded_at": null, "date_precision": "day", "date_label": "2015-03-11, day precision", "chronology_status": "dated", "channel": { "id": "UCvCym0qZPUjCWpllQMx894w", "handle": "UCvCym0qZPUjCWpllQMx894w", "title": "WISE Channel", "url": "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvCym0qZPUjCWpllQMx894w" }, "path_base": "/interviews", "path": "/interviews/interview-2-rt358x96i/", "transcript_path": "/interviews/interview-2-rt358x96i/transcript/", "data_url": "/data/lens/interviews/interview-2-rt358x96i.json", "counts": { "semantic_passes": 2, "interactions": 12, "speaker_notes": 3, "claims": 20, "signature_moments": 10, "predictions": 0, "models": 7, "glossary_terms": 8, "chronology_notes": 2, "uncertainty_notes": 2, "glossary_candidates": 8, "transcript_segments": 16, "transcript_words": 1462, "duration_seconds": 578.94, "duration_label": "9:38" }, "paths": { "source": "content/sources/videos/interview-2-rt358x96i/source.yaml", "transcript": "content/sources/videos/interview-2-rt358x96i/transcripts/v1/transcript.clean.jsonl", "semantic_bundle": "content/lens/evidence/videos/interview-2-rt358x96i.semantic.json", "semantic_passes": [ "content/workflow/proposals/interview-2-rt358x96i/packet-0001.semantic.json", "content/workflow/proposals/interview-2-rt358x96i/packet-0002.semantic.json" ], "read": "content/lens/episodes/interview-2-rt358x96i/read.json" }, "read": { "id": "episode-read:interview-2-rt358x96i:v1", "kind": "episode-read", "schema_version": 2, "source_id": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i", "slug": "interview-2-rt358x96i", "title": "Schools Should Make Human Beings, Not Workers", "subtitle": "A short WISE 2014 debate turns creativity into a fight over teacher fear, design, trust, and the purpose of schooling", "read_time": "6 min", "editorial_mode": "distilled-interview", "voice_policy": "Direct, debate-driven prose preserving the panel pressure and the sharpest Jiang-adjacent formulations without flattening the source into a neutral education recap.", "trace_policy": "Paragraph claims and selective marks carry exact transcript refs. The read stays attached to the dated 2015-03-11 panel and uses no invented audience questions.", "dek": "The panel's strongest claim is that education reform does not fail first on money or technique. It fails on what schools think they are for. If a school's hidden purpose is to manufacture compliant workers, creativity looks like disruption. If its purpose is to form human beings, then trust, collaboration, design, and community problem-solving become central rather than ornamental.", "thesis": "This short panel keeps circling one civilizational fork. One speaker says the crisis in education is not resources but mindset: schools must decide whether they are producing workers or human beings, and human beings need to learn, love, and create. The other speakers pressure and qualify that claim rather than dissolving it. In African classrooms, creativity already exists but is treated as restlessness and threat. In teacher training, systems reward knowledge transfer instead of habit change and collaboration. In professional reform, autonomy cannot come from abandonment; it needs trust, peer feedback, coaching, evidence, and design discipline. The debate's through-line is that creativity is not a decorative extra for affluent schools. It is a test of whether education is organized around fear and compliance or around the formation of capable, socially responsive people.", "source_notes": [ { "text": "The source is a dated panel from 2015-03-11 with multiple anonymous speakers. This read preserves the stable argumentative movement of the debate without pretending the transcript recovers every speaker name.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0016" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "segment_id": "seg-0001", "start": 6.6, "end": 47.8, "time_label": "0:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_03", "excerpt": "We've been talking a lot in the past two days in previous forums about reforming education, improving education outputs, matching skills to the job, and so on. And we always come back to the issue of teachers. I think t..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 48.06, "end": 111.158, "time_label": "0:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think the problem right now that we face in education isn't one of resources. It's one of mindset. So the solution, if you want to bring creativity back into the classroom, if you want to encourage creativity, we have..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0016", "segment_id": "seg-0016", "start": 545.48, "end": 578.94, "time_label": "9:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_04", "excerpt": "If we want to create a profession, a teaching profession, it is one that has to be very, very research literate. So that it can really understand the evidence that is presented to them about what works within classrooms..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "The transcript includes one empty repaired segment after boundary review. The substantive argument continues cleanly across that repair, so this read follows the uninterrupted speech rather than treating the empty segment as a separate turn.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0005" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "segment_id": "seg-0004", "start": 115.1, "end": 184.09, "time_label": "1:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "In a system where you have about 20 million pupils out of school, where you have less than 45 % in the secondary school, is creativity a luxury? I think that's the issue you're trying to raise. Does creativity occur in..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0005", "segment_id": "seg-0005", "start": 182.63, "end": 184.09, "time_label": "3:02", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "" } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "opening": { "heading": "Core Reading", "text": "The debate gets interesting when it stops talking about creativity as a classroom technique and starts talking about the kind of person a school is trying to produce. One speaker says the real problem is not resources but mindset. Schools have to choose whether they are making workers or making human beings, and human beings have spiritual needs to learn, love, and create. Once that standard is stated, the rest of the panel becomes legible. Creativity looks dangerous when teachers are fearful, overcontrolled, and treated as delivery mechanisms. It becomes plausible when teachers are allowed to collaborate, redesign their practice, respond to real community needs, and work inside cultures of trust rather than obedience. The strongest thread in the source is that reform is not mainly a search for better tricks. It is a struggle over whether education is for compliance or for human formation.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0010", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0012" ], "marks": [ { "text": "Do we want to produce workers, or do we want to produce human beings?", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 48.06, "end": 111.158, "time_label": "0:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think the problem right now that we face in education isn't one of resources. It's one of mindset. So the solution, if you want to bring creativity back into the classroom, if you want to encourage creativity, we have..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "text": "three fundamental spiritual needs", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 48.06, "end": 111.158, "time_label": "0:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think the problem right now that we face in education isn't one of resources. It's one of mindset. 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And you need a kind of a safety net to help the teachers be designers of experiences like protocols, like pee..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, "beats": [ { "id": "workers-or-human-beings", "heading": "The Debate Opens By Reframing Education As Human Formation", "time_range": "00:06-03:04", "summary": "The opening turns teacher shortages and reform talk into a sharper question: are schools built to produce labor or to form human beings with needs to learn, love, and create?", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0003", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "workers-or-human-beings-001", "text": "The moderator-like opening starts conventionally enough with shortages, quality, motivation, and the difficulty of attracting top talent into teaching. But the next move snaps the conversation into a different register. The problem, one speaker says, is not resources. It is mindset. Once that is said, the argument stops being about administrative upgrades and becomes a fight over what schools exist to produce.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0001", "segment_id": "seg-0001", "start": 6.6, "end": 47.8, "time_label": "0:06", "speaker": "SPEAKER_03", "excerpt": "We've been talking a lot in the past two days in previous forums about reforming education, improving education outputs, matching skills to the job, and so on. And we always come back to the issue of teachers. 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It is part of a basic anthropology, and reform requires a revolution in thinking rather than another pile of strategies and techniques.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0003" ], "marks": [ { "text": "they need to learn, they need to love, and they need to create", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 48.06, "end": 111.158, "time_label": "0:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think the problem right now that we face in education isn't one of resources. It's one of mindset. So the solution, if you want to bring creativity back into the classroom, if you want to encourage creativity, we have..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0002", "segment_id": "seg-0002", "start": 48.06, "end": 111.158, "time_label": "0:48", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think the problem right now that we face in education isn't one of resources. It's one of mindset. So the solution, if you want to bring creativity back into the classroom, if you want to encourage creativity, we have..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0003", "segment_id": "seg-0003", "start": 111.158, "end": 114.54, "time_label": "1:51", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "To help inspire our children to be the creative best." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "workers-or-human-beings-003", "text": "The African intervention gives the first hard counterpressure. In systems with massive exclusion and weak secondary-school access, creativity can look like an indulgence. But the answer is not that creativity is absent. It is that creativity survives socially while formal classrooms misrecognize it as disruption. The educational problem is less absence than failure of recognition and institutional support.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004" ], "marks": [ { "text": "Not by design, probably by accident", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0004", "segment_id": "seg-0004", "start": 115.1, "end": 184.09, "time_label": "1:55", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "In a system where you have about 20 million pupils out of school, where you have less than 45 % in the secondary school, is creativity a luxury? I think that's the issue you're trying to raise. 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That image helps explain why creativity so quickly appears as danger rather than as possibility.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "marks": [ { "text": "a system that hardwired itself", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0006" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 184.35, "end": 194.91, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_03", "excerpt": "We seem to have a system that hardwired itself. And we're all afraid. The parents are afraid. The teacher. There's a lot of fear. And we're hardwired into a system we all believe is not working." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 184.35, "end": 194.91, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_03", "excerpt": "We seem to have a system that hardwired itself. And we're all afraid. The parents are afraid. The teacher. There's a lot of fear. And we're hardwired into a system we all believe is not working." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "fear-habits-and-burnout-002", "text": "Another speaker makes the professional version of the same complaint. Systems neglect teacher collaboration even though collaboration improves learning more than anything else. Training, when it appears, improves knowledge rather than classroom habits. The result is burnout, wasted technology, and a profession that no longer attracts younger people who want creative work.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0008" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0007", "segment_id": "seg-0007", "start": 195.13, "end": 245.01, "time_label": "3:15", "speaker": "SPEAKER_04", "excerpt": "Systems don't focus sufficiently on teacher collaboration, even though we know that teacher collaboration is the one thing that improves learning more than anything else. And finally, when teachers do get training, too..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0008", "segment_id": "seg-0008", "start": 245.17, "end": 247.53, "time_label": "4:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_04", "excerpt": "And we think creativity is central to that." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] }, { "id": "fear-habits-and-burnout-003", "text": "The reform-method answer is more patient than revolutionary rhetoric might suggest. Teacher change begins with attitude, shared vision, and buy-in. Training then has to be practiced, reflected on jointly, and repeated until it becomes habit. The source keeps insisting on this point from different angles: creativity is not spontaneity floating above institutions. It needs social conditions that make new practices durable.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0009" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0009", "segment_id": "seg-0009", "start": 247.61, "end": 325.77, "time_label": "4:07", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "The first challenge in the teaching staff was attitudinal. Have the desire to learn and to want to change the way we thought and the way we did things. And we have dedicated a lot of time to this. And we continue to do..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ], "start": 184, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0006", "segment_id": "seg-0006", "start": 184.35, "end": 194.91, "time_label": "3:04", "speaker": "SPEAKER_03", "excerpt": "We seem to have a system that hardwired itself. And we're all afraid. The parents are afraid. The teacher. There's a lot of fear. 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Have the desire to learn and to want to change the way we thought and the way we did things. And we have dedicated a lot of time to this. And we continue to do..." } ] }, { "id": "teachers-as-designers", "heading": "Teachers Need Design Authority, Not Ring-Bound Rules", "time_range": "05:26-06:19", "summary": "The debate's sharpest professional ideal casts teachers as evidence-informed designers of curriculum, assessment, relationships, and learning experiences.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0010" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "teachers-as-designers-001", "text": "The panel's most durable institutional image arrives when a speaker argues for disciplined creativity. Teachers should not simply be abandoned to improvisation, but neither should they be reduced to rule-followers. They need evidence, constraints, and design thinking strong enough to let them generate new approaches responsibly.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0010" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0010", "segment_id": "seg-0010", "start": 326.03, "end": 379.26, "time_label": "5:26", "speaker": "SPEAKER_04", "excerpt": "We need to encourage a disciplined creativity amongst teachers. So that teachers aren't just left to their own devices but they need to think about how they are informed by and generating the best possible evidence for..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] }, { "id": "teachers-as-designers-002", "text": "That is why teachers are recast as designers: of curriculum, of assessment, of relationships, and of learning experiences. The point is not to romanticize creativity. 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Students become creative when they confront social problems and work with teachers as collaborators in addressing them. That keeps the debate from turning into generic praise of imagination. Creativity matters because it binds education back to community life.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0011" ], "marks": [ { "text": "creativity is a response to need", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0011" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "segment_id": "seg-0011", "start": 379.5, "end": 411.63, "time_label": "6:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "If you want to encourage creativity, creativity is a response to need. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Students are creative because they see social problems and they respond to it. 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It means building safety nets such as protocols, peer feedback, coaching, and teaching teams that let autonomy become productive.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0012" ], "marks": [ { "text": "Obedience generates discipline. But trust generates autonomy.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0012" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 412.85, "end": 452.03, "time_label": "6:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Obedience generates discipline. But trust generates autonomy. And then autonomy in turn generates creativity. And you need a kind of a safety net to help the teachers be designers of experiences like protocols, like pee..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0012", "segment_id": "seg-0012", "start": 412.85, "end": 452.03, "time_label": "6:52", "speaker": "SPEAKER_00", "excerpt": "Obedience generates discipline. But trust generates autonomy. And then autonomy in turn generates creativity. And you need a kind of a safety net to help the teachers be designers of experiences like protocols, like pee..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "creativity-needs-trust-and-purpose-003", "text": "The call for openness and fluidity extends the same model outward. Parents should be able to enter classrooms. Teachers should become students again. The school system should be porous enough that authority can circulate instead of hardening into a closed hierarchy. The debate never fully works out that vision, but it clearly treats closure as part of the problem.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0013" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0013", "segment_id": "seg-0013", "start": 452.45, "end": 470.73, "time_label": "7:32", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "I think that the first step we need to implement is more openness, flexibility, and fluidity in the school system. Why can't parents come into the classroom and teach to students? Why can't we have teachers become stude..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [], "marks": [] } ], "start": 379, "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0011", "segment_id": "seg-0011", "start": 379.5, "end": 411.63, "time_label": "6:19", "speaker": "SPEAKER_02", "excerpt": "If you want to encourage creativity, creativity is a response to need. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. 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Why can't we have teachers become stude..." } ] }, { "id": "from-training-to-education", "heading": "Teacher Education Means Development, Experiment, And Context", "time_range": "07:50-09:38", "summary": "The closing turns argue that governments still confuse training with education, but practical experimentation, research literacy, and contextual judgment can widen what teachers and students are able to do.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0016" ], "paragraphs": [ { "id": "from-training-to-education-001", "text": "The policy critique returns in the final minutes. Too many institutions still offer teacher training rather than teacher education, and governments underinvest in development beyond the formal system. The Minecraft example is introduced not as gadget worship but as proof that new tools can quickly widen design capacity when students are trusted to experiment.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0015" ], "marks": [ { "text": "teacher training, not teacher education", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0014" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 470.73, "end": 534.7, "time_label": "7:50", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "In many of the schools, many of the colleges of education, what we do is teacher training, not teacher education. And governments don't spend more time training or providing extra teacher development for them outside th..." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] } ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0014", "segment_id": "seg-0014", "start": 470.73, "end": 534.7, "time_label": "7:50", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "In many of the schools, many of the colleges of education, what we do is teacher training, not teacher education. And governments don't spend more time training or providing extra teacher development for them outside th..." }, { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0015", "segment_id": "seg-0015", "start": 534.7, "end": 545.18, "time_label": "8:54", "speaker": "SPEAKER_01", "excerpt": "say, wow, it means that we can reduce training architects from three years to just one and a half years or less. So this is how you can begin to change the system." } ], "lens_points": [], "lens_points_detail": [] }, { "id": "from-training-to-education-002", "text": "The last speaker sharpens that into a professional ethic. A real teaching profession must be research literate, capable of understanding evidence, and willing to ask not just what works in general but what might work here, with these young people, in this context. The debate ends by honoring the teachers who are already creative beyond protocol, which is a fitting close: the system changes not only when theory improves, but when living practitioners are recognized as the authors of the change.", "refs": [ "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0016" ], "refs_detail": [ { "ref": "video:interview-2-rt358x96i@transcript:v1#seg-0016", "segment_id": "seg-0016", "start": 545.48, "end": 578.94, "time_label": "9:05", "speaker": "SPEAKER_04", "excerpt": "If we want to create a profession, a teaching profession, it is one that has to be very, very research literate. 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This comes at a time where most countries around the world, or most regions, are struggling with lack of teachers. We have predictions for large numbers of teachers required in the future. There's teacher shortages. We talk of quality, and we talk of the teacher's motivation. So this is a tough time for the profession, I would say. 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It's one of mindset. So the solution, if you want to bring creativity back into the classroom, if you want to encourage creativity, we have to change the mindset of... of schools. Do we want to produce workers, or do we want to produce human beings? And there's a difference. Human beings have three fundamental spiritual needs that they need to learn, they need to love, and they need to create. And these needs are just as important for their survival as the physical needs of water, food, and shelter. So I feel that nowadays, the discussion is always on strategies and techniques. But it's not on mindset. And I feel that the real solution, it doesn't require innovation, it requires a revolution in thinking. 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I think that's the issue you're trying to raise. Does creativity occur in our classrooms in Africa? Not by design, probably by accident. The teacher sees creativity or a creative student as a very restless one that disrupts his class. Of course, it challenges the teacher's knowledge. I mean, these days, the students know more than the teachers. And so a teacher will feel threatened by that. In the African culture, creativity happens. We don't compartmentalize learning in the traditional system. So children, as they begin to grow, tries to create things on their own. So it's not that it's not there in the system, but it is not recognized and it has not been institutionalized. And we need to look into how to balance that. 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Have the desire to learn and to want to change the way we thought and the way we did things. And we have dedicated a lot of time to this. And we continue to do so. Sharing. The vision. And making teachers the stakeholders in this vision. Creating the need for change. And achieving an open and flexible attitude among the teacher staff. And hand in hand this attitude comes the training. And changes in the curriculum, the methodology and the assessment have been achieved by means of a great deal of teaching. Training, teaching. This training has to be put into practice to be reflected upon jointly and then become enhanced in practice. 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It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Students are creative because they see social problems and they respond to it. Teachers and students should be active collaborators to help the community. And that's where creativity comes from. Creative should not be the goal, it should be a means. And if you let teachers and students work together to respond to social problems, creativity happens naturally, organically. 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